Has there ever been an airliner design involving reducing generator load by installing solar panels?Would “wind turbine generators” in the bypass stream save fuel for jetliners?What are the advantages of the B747-8 airfoil over B737's airfoil?Have other designs for individual gasper ventilation been tried?Why hasn't there ever been a large 4-engine commercial airplane with 2 engines on the wings and 2 engines at the tail?Feasibility of using secondary props to generate power on an electric model aircraftCould there ever be a fully solar powered airliner capable of transatlantic flights?Would “wind turbine generators” in the bypass stream save fuel for jetliners?Has there ever been a seaplane with inflatable airbags rather than traditional pontoons?Would it have been feasible to install 'conformal fuel tanks' on the Mercure?What is the feasibility of solar powered drones?Why did narrowbody jetliners take so long to switch over to high-bypass engines?
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Has there ever been an airliner design involving reducing generator load by installing solar panels?
Would “wind turbine generators” in the bypass stream save fuel for jetliners?What are the advantages of the B747-8 airfoil over B737's airfoil?Have other designs for individual gasper ventilation been tried?Why hasn't there ever been a large 4-engine commercial airplane with 2 engines on the wings and 2 engines at the tail?Feasibility of using secondary props to generate power on an electric model aircraftCould there ever be a fully solar powered airliner capable of transatlantic flights?Would “wind turbine generators” in the bypass stream save fuel for jetliners?Has there ever been a seaplane with inflatable airbags rather than traditional pontoons?Would it have been feasible to install 'conformal fuel tanks' on the Mercure?What is the feasibility of solar powered drones?Why did narrowbody jetliners take so long to switch over to high-bypass engines?
$begingroup$
Has there ever been a trial/project/design, in which solar panels were incorporated in the design of a commerical airliner (e.g. on the wings), with the aim to reduce fuel consumption by lowering the generator workload?
If no, why not?
aircraft-design electrical-system solar-power
edited 4 hours ago
Steve V.
14.9k568135
asked 14 hours ago
avsolavsol
312
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show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Has there ever been a trial/project/design, in which solar panels were incorporated in the design of a commerical airliner (e.g. on the wings), with the aim to reduce fuel consumption by lowering the generator workload?
If no, why not?
aircraft-design electrical-system solar-power
edited 4 hours ago
Steve V.
14.9k568135
asked 14 hours ago
avsolavsol
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I'm not aware of any. And I can see several important reasons why not: solar panels are heavy, they're fragile, they require a lot of maintenance, they require a lot of wiring.
$endgroup$
– jwenting
13 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
@jwenting the actual solar panels aren't heavy at all. Most of the weight comes from structural reinforcements, which you don't need if you implement it into an existing structure such as the fuselage or wings. Nevertheless I don't think it would be worth it.
$endgroup$
– GittingGud
7 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
Solar energy is just a religion. The amount of energy gatherable per unit area is ... totally trivial. Indeed, the example of aircraft points out how utterly useless solar energy is. Solar cells are a fantastically ingenious invention for, say, calculators.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
7 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
As you include trail options, there have been at least two planes which have been powered completely by photovoltaic panels, Solar Impulse: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Impulse it isn't commercial, isn't in anything like mass production, and is very slow, but they did do a round-the-world trip in the second one.
$endgroup$
– Puffafish
5 hours ago
12
$begingroup$
@Fattie Solar energy is perfectly workable on the ground, where getting 200W per square meter is fine.
$endgroup$
– pjc50
4 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Has there ever been a trial/project/design, in which solar panels were incorporated in the design of a commerical airliner (e.g. on the wings), with the aim to reduce fuel consumption by lowering the generator workload?
If no, why not?
aircraft-design electrical-system solar-power
edited 4 hours ago
Steve V.
14.9k568135
asked 14 hours ago
avsolavsol
312
New contributor
avsol is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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$endgroup$
Has there ever been a trial/project/design, in which solar panels were incorporated in the design of a commerical airliner (e.g. on the wings), with the aim to reduce fuel consumption by lowering the generator workload?
If no, why not?
aircraft-design electrical-system solar-power
aircraft-design electrical-system solar-power
edited 4 hours ago
Steve V.
14.9k568135
asked 14 hours ago
avsolavsol
312
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edited 4 hours ago
Steve V.
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asked 14 hours ago
avsolavsol
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edited 4 hours ago
Steve V.
14.9k568135
edited 4 hours ago
Steve V.
14.9k568135
edited 4 hours ago
Steve V.
14.9k568135
14.9k568135
asked 14 hours ago
avsolavsol
312
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asked 14 hours ago
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3
$begingroup$
I'm not aware of any. And I can see several important reasons why not: solar panels are heavy, they're fragile, they require a lot of maintenance, they require a lot of wiring.
$endgroup$
– jwenting
13 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
@jwenting the actual solar panels aren't heavy at all. Most of the weight comes from structural reinforcements, which you don't need if you implement it into an existing structure such as the fuselage or wings. Nevertheless I don't think it would be worth it.
$endgroup$
– GittingGud
7 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
Solar energy is just a religion. The amount of energy gatherable per unit area is ... totally trivial. Indeed, the example of aircraft points out how utterly useless solar energy is. Solar cells are a fantastically ingenious invention for, say, calculators.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
7 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
As you include trail options, there have been at least two planes which have been powered completely by photovoltaic panels, Solar Impulse: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Impulse it isn't commercial, isn't in anything like mass production, and is very slow, but they did do a round-the-world trip in the second one.
$endgroup$
– Puffafish
5 hours ago
12
$begingroup$
@Fattie Solar energy is perfectly workable on the ground, where getting 200W per square meter is fine.
$endgroup$
– pjc50
4 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
3
$begingroup$
I'm not aware of any. And I can see several important reasons why not: solar panels are heavy, they're fragile, they require a lot of maintenance, they require a lot of wiring.
$endgroup$
– jwenting
13 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
@jwenting the actual solar panels aren't heavy at all. Most of the weight comes from structural reinforcements, which you don't need if you implement it into an existing structure such as the fuselage or wings. Nevertheless I don't think it would be worth it.
$endgroup$
– GittingGud
7 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
Solar energy is just a religion. The amount of energy gatherable per unit area is ... totally trivial. Indeed, the example of aircraft points out how utterly useless solar energy is. Solar cells are a fantastically ingenious invention for, say, calculators.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
7 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
As you include trail options, there have been at least two planes which have been powered completely by photovoltaic panels, Solar Impulse: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Impulse it isn't commercial, isn't in anything like mass production, and is very slow, but they did do a round-the-world trip in the second one.
$endgroup$
– Puffafish
5 hours ago
12
$begingroup$
@Fattie Solar energy is perfectly workable on the ground, where getting 200W per square meter is fine.
$endgroup$
– pjc50
4 hours ago
3
3
$begingroup$
I'm not aware of any. And I can see several important reasons why not: solar panels are heavy, they're fragile, they require a lot of maintenance, they require a lot of wiring.
$endgroup$
– jwenting
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
I'm not aware of any. And I can see several important reasons why not: solar panels are heavy, they're fragile, they require a lot of maintenance, they require a lot of wiring.
$endgroup$
– jwenting
13 hours ago
3
3
$begingroup$
@jwenting the actual solar panels aren't heavy at all. Most of the weight comes from structural reinforcements, which you don't need if you implement it into an existing structure such as the fuselage or wings. Nevertheless I don't think it would be worth it.
$endgroup$
– GittingGud
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@jwenting the actual solar panels aren't heavy at all. Most of the weight comes from structural reinforcements, which you don't need if you implement it into an existing structure such as the fuselage or wings. Nevertheless I don't think it would be worth it.
$endgroup$
– GittingGud
7 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
Solar energy is just a religion. The amount of energy gatherable per unit area is ... totally trivial. Indeed, the example of aircraft points out how utterly useless solar energy is. Solar cells are a fantastically ingenious invention for, say, calculators.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Solar energy is just a religion. The amount of energy gatherable per unit area is ... totally trivial. Indeed, the example of aircraft points out how utterly useless solar energy is. Solar cells are a fantastically ingenious invention for, say, calculators.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
7 hours ago
4
4
$begingroup$
As you include trail options, there have been at least two planes which have been powered completely by photovoltaic panels, Solar Impulse: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Impulse it isn't commercial, isn't in anything like mass production, and is very slow, but they did do a round-the-world trip in the second one.
$endgroup$
– Puffafish
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
As you include trail options, there have been at least two planes which have been powered completely by photovoltaic panels, Solar Impulse: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Impulse it isn't commercial, isn't in anything like mass production, and is very slow, but they did do a round-the-world trip in the second one.
$endgroup$
– Puffafish
5 hours ago
12
12
$begingroup$
@Fattie Solar energy is perfectly workable on the ground, where getting 200W per square meter is fine.
$endgroup$
– pjc50
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Fattie Solar energy is perfectly workable on the ground, where getting 200W per square meter is fine.
$endgroup$
– pjc50
4 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
If no, why not?
While I can't say categorically that it's not happened, I'm pretty sure.
Solar radiance is approx. 1kW/m^2. A 737 has approximately 100m^2 wing area. Solar cells are approximately 20% effective.
If you covered the entire wings in solar panels, that would work out to 20kW of electrical power at best. At night, it would be close to zero extra power.
Jet fuel contains ~43MJ/kg of energy. 20kW is 20kJ/s. For a 2 hour flight, the total energy produced would be 144MJ, or comparable to energy in 3-4 kilograms of jet fuel.
Turbines is not 100% efficient, so let's say that with all losses in engine, 25% of the power in the fuel is available as electricity. That means you'd need 12kg of fuel to provide the same amount of electricity as the solar panels.
12kg of fuel. That's probably far less than the solar cells will weigh, probably by a factor of at least ten. In addition, the you don't have to carry around already burnt fuel, unlike solar cells, which you will have to carry around.
Edit: I found another answer on this site, that claims extra fuel use is on the order of 0.125kg/kWh. I don't know if that's correct or not, nor do I really care. It doesn't change the conclusion, it only makes jet fuel even more favorable.
In short the amount of power provided by solar cells is tiny compared to the energy contained in jet fuel. And that doesn't even touch on the mechanical requirements of a wing...
answered 12 hours ago
vidarlovidarlo
812614
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Right, although a not completely unconceivable setup would be to have thin-film cells on the wings instead of paint. Solar cells can be made very light. The more fundamental problem is that there's just not really much area available, especially with reasonably high aspect ratio wings – and lower aspect ratio would mean higher drag, which would again defeat the point.
$endgroup$
– leftaroundabout
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Black solar cell paint could also heat up the underlying wing structure. If aluminum, that's not good as heated fuel expands. If composites, that's not that good as heat is bad - that's why composite structure are painted white to help keep them cooler.
$endgroup$
– CrossRoads
4 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
The problem with generating "only" 20kW by solar panels is not only that it is a tiny proportion of the total, but it's more electrical power than you actually need most of the time. For example the battery backup system on a 737-800, designed to provide 30 minutes emergency power if all other power generators fail, is rated at less than 2kW. Adding yet another system to convert the tiny amount of "excess" solar energy into mechanical thrust would make the concept even less practical.
$endgroup$
– alephzero
3 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
Sure, there's lot's of small reasons why it's difficult. But those could probably be solved if it was economically viable. But it's not. It's technically difficult, and there damn close to zero reason for it.
$endgroup$
– vidarlo
3 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@alephzero I imagine that this power would be used mainly for non-critical systems, like passenger entertainment, WiFi, and power outlets.
$endgroup$
– Barmar
2 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
No, there are several reasons:
- Fragility v Efficiency v Weight: the most efficient solar panels are rigid and heavy, which is bad for a wing structure. Flexible and light panels do exist, but they are half the efficiency. They also have limitations to how much flexing they really can take, the constant flexing of a wing, vibrations, cycles between hot and extreme cold at altitude all make it a punishing environment for that kind of technology. Covering the fuselage would mean less flexing, but then you'd only have a few panels positioned right at any one time to create electricity
- Weight: In addition to the weight of the panels themselves you have all the other technology to make them work, like regulators, power conditioners, power storage, delivery wiring
- Complexity: This is yet another system to maintain, and it would be complicated to do so. If a panel breaks you'd have to take apart the wing to get at it
- Cost: you'd need solar panels that are efficient, flexible, durable and light. That all adds up to expensive panels, far more than is worth it
- Limited window of use: Obviously solar panels are no good at night, but they are also only generate electricity when they are oriented at least partly towards the sun. If you're going to cover the wing then the sun must be a good 30-40° up before you'll get appreciable power from them
So it's a lot of weight and cost for a technology that isn't going to generate power for much of the time the airplane is in use.
answered 7 hours ago
GdDGdD
32.4k386134
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
This answer is not really correct. (1) the actual answer is that solar cells provide what can only be described as "no" power, within rounding error. (2) the difficulties mentioned (cost, engineering difficulty etc) would, indeed, be instantly overcome if solar energy was 10,000x more powerful than it is (indeed everything on an aircraft is very expensive, difficult to make).
$endgroup$
– Fattie
7 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
I don't follow you @Fattie. Solar cells do provide power, it's why they're being installed on homes all over the place....
$endgroup$
– GdD
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
They provide a minuscul amount of power, in terms of the question asked though. Consider vid's answer. At the absolute theoretical max it would provide the equivalent of "a few KG" of jet fuel. (!) That's why I said it is zero within rounding error.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
7 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
There's more than one aspect to this @Fattie, and there was no point in repeating vidarlo's answer.
$endgroup$
– GdD
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Not purely on topic but there is a solar airplane. Solar supported airliner isn't out of the realm of possibilities, just solar tech isn't there yet. Also it would have to be economically feasible to even be considered.
Here's an article from 2016 about a solar airplane that traveled the globe.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/26/solar-impulse-plane-makes-history-completing-round-the-world-trip
answered 2 hours ago
MertymanMertyman
91
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While this link may answer the question, it is better to include the essential parts of the answer here and provide the link for reference. Link-only answers can become invalid if the linked page changes. - From Review
$endgroup$
– FreeMan
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
Solar Impulse 2 is basically covered in solar panels of probably at least 20% efficiency. This gives it enough power to fly with just a single pilot, at about 60 mph during the day, or 30 mph on batteries at night. Even with 100% efficient panels, that's still nowhere near the power to carry a cabin full of people at much higher speeds. Modern high-speed air travel uses a ridiculous amount of energy; that's why it creates so much greenhouse gas emissions. It would be nice if solar flight were viable for airliners, but it doesn't look like it ever will be.
$endgroup$
– Peter Cordes
27 mins ago
add a comment |
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3 Answers
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$begingroup$
If no, why not?
While I can't say categorically that it's not happened, I'm pretty sure.
Solar radiance is approx. 1kW/m^2. A 737 has approximately 100m^2 wing area. Solar cells are approximately 20% effective.
If you covered the entire wings in solar panels, that would work out to 20kW of electrical power at best. At night, it would be close to zero extra power.
Jet fuel contains ~43MJ/kg of energy. 20kW is 20kJ/s. For a 2 hour flight, the total energy produced would be 144MJ, or comparable to energy in 3-4 kilograms of jet fuel.
Turbines is not 100% efficient, so let's say that with all losses in engine, 25% of the power in the fuel is available as electricity. That means you'd need 12kg of fuel to provide the same amount of electricity as the solar panels.
12kg of fuel. That's probably far less than the solar cells will weigh, probably by a factor of at least ten. In addition, the you don't have to carry around already burnt fuel, unlike solar cells, which you will have to carry around.
Edit: I found another answer on this site, that claims extra fuel use is on the order of 0.125kg/kWh. I don't know if that's correct or not, nor do I really care. It doesn't change the conclusion, it only makes jet fuel even more favorable.
In short the amount of power provided by solar cells is tiny compared to the energy contained in jet fuel. And that doesn't even touch on the mechanical requirements of a wing...
answered 12 hours ago
vidarlovidarlo
812614
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Right, although a not completely unconceivable setup would be to have thin-film cells on the wings instead of paint. Solar cells can be made very light. The more fundamental problem is that there's just not really much area available, especially with reasonably high aspect ratio wings – and lower aspect ratio would mean higher drag, which would again defeat the point.
$endgroup$
– leftaroundabout
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Black solar cell paint could also heat up the underlying wing structure. If aluminum, that's not good as heated fuel expands. If composites, that's not that good as heat is bad - that's why composite structure are painted white to help keep them cooler.
$endgroup$
– CrossRoads
4 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
The problem with generating "only" 20kW by solar panels is not only that it is a tiny proportion of the total, but it's more electrical power than you actually need most of the time. For example the battery backup system on a 737-800, designed to provide 30 minutes emergency power if all other power generators fail, is rated at less than 2kW. Adding yet another system to convert the tiny amount of "excess" solar energy into mechanical thrust would make the concept even less practical.
$endgroup$
– alephzero
3 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
Sure, there's lot's of small reasons why it's difficult. But those could probably be solved if it was economically viable. But it's not. It's technically difficult, and there damn close to zero reason for it.
$endgroup$
– vidarlo
3 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@alephzero I imagine that this power would be used mainly for non-critical systems, like passenger entertainment, WiFi, and power outlets.
$endgroup$
– Barmar
2 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
If no, why not?
While I can't say categorically that it's not happened, I'm pretty sure.
Solar radiance is approx. 1kW/m^2. A 737 has approximately 100m^2 wing area. Solar cells are approximately 20% effective.
If you covered the entire wings in solar panels, that would work out to 20kW of electrical power at best. At night, it would be close to zero extra power.
Jet fuel contains ~43MJ/kg of energy. 20kW is 20kJ/s. For a 2 hour flight, the total energy produced would be 144MJ, or comparable to energy in 3-4 kilograms of jet fuel.
Turbines is not 100% efficient, so let's say that with all losses in engine, 25% of the power in the fuel is available as electricity. That means you'd need 12kg of fuel to provide the same amount of electricity as the solar panels.
12kg of fuel. That's probably far less than the solar cells will weigh, probably by a factor of at least ten. In addition, the you don't have to carry around already burnt fuel, unlike solar cells, which you will have to carry around.
Edit: I found another answer on this site, that claims extra fuel use is on the order of 0.125kg/kWh. I don't know if that's correct or not, nor do I really care. It doesn't change the conclusion, it only makes jet fuel even more favorable.
In short the amount of power provided by solar cells is tiny compared to the energy contained in jet fuel. And that doesn't even touch on the mechanical requirements of a wing...
answered 12 hours ago
vidarlovidarlo
812614
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Right, although a not completely unconceivable setup would be to have thin-film cells on the wings instead of paint. Solar cells can be made very light. The more fundamental problem is that there's just not really much area available, especially with reasonably high aspect ratio wings – and lower aspect ratio would mean higher drag, which would again defeat the point.
$endgroup$
– leftaroundabout
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Black solar cell paint could also heat up the underlying wing structure. If aluminum, that's not good as heated fuel expands. If composites, that's not that good as heat is bad - that's why composite structure are painted white to help keep them cooler.
$endgroup$
– CrossRoads
4 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
The problem with generating "only" 20kW by solar panels is not only that it is a tiny proportion of the total, but it's more electrical power than you actually need most of the time. For example the battery backup system on a 737-800, designed to provide 30 minutes emergency power if all other power generators fail, is rated at less than 2kW. Adding yet another system to convert the tiny amount of "excess" solar energy into mechanical thrust would make the concept even less practical.
$endgroup$
– alephzero
3 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
Sure, there's lot's of small reasons why it's difficult. But those could probably be solved if it was economically viable. But it's not. It's technically difficult, and there damn close to zero reason for it.
$endgroup$
– vidarlo
3 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@alephzero I imagine that this power would be used mainly for non-critical systems, like passenger entertainment, WiFi, and power outlets.
$endgroup$
– Barmar
2 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
If no, why not?
While I can't say categorically that it's not happened, I'm pretty sure.
Solar radiance is approx. 1kW/m^2. A 737 has approximately 100m^2 wing area. Solar cells are approximately 20% effective.
If you covered the entire wings in solar panels, that would work out to 20kW of electrical power at best. At night, it would be close to zero extra power.
Jet fuel contains ~43MJ/kg of energy. 20kW is 20kJ/s. For a 2 hour flight, the total energy produced would be 144MJ, or comparable to energy in 3-4 kilograms of jet fuel.
Turbines is not 100% efficient, so let's say that with all losses in engine, 25% of the power in the fuel is available as electricity. That means you'd need 12kg of fuel to provide the same amount of electricity as the solar panels.
12kg of fuel. That's probably far less than the solar cells will weigh, probably by a factor of at least ten. In addition, the you don't have to carry around already burnt fuel, unlike solar cells, which you will have to carry around.
Edit: I found another answer on this site, that claims extra fuel use is on the order of 0.125kg/kWh. I don't know if that's correct or not, nor do I really care. It doesn't change the conclusion, it only makes jet fuel even more favorable.
In short the amount of power provided by solar cells is tiny compared to the energy contained in jet fuel. And that doesn't even touch on the mechanical requirements of a wing...
answered 12 hours ago
vidarlovidarlo
812614
$endgroup$
If no, why not?
While I can't say categorically that it's not happened, I'm pretty sure.
Solar radiance is approx. 1kW/m^2. A 737 has approximately 100m^2 wing area. Solar cells are approximately 20% effective.
If you covered the entire wings in solar panels, that would work out to 20kW of electrical power at best. At night, it would be close to zero extra power.
Jet fuel contains ~43MJ/kg of energy. 20kW is 20kJ/s. For a 2 hour flight, the total energy produced would be 144MJ, or comparable to energy in 3-4 kilograms of jet fuel.
Turbines is not 100% efficient, so let's say that with all losses in engine, 25% of the power in the fuel is available as electricity. That means you'd need 12kg of fuel to provide the same amount of electricity as the solar panels.
12kg of fuel. That's probably far less than the solar cells will weigh, probably by a factor of at least ten. In addition, the you don't have to carry around already burnt fuel, unlike solar cells, which you will have to carry around.
Edit: I found another answer on this site, that claims extra fuel use is on the order of 0.125kg/kWh. I don't know if that's correct or not, nor do I really care. It doesn't change the conclusion, it only makes jet fuel even more favorable.
In short the amount of power provided by solar cells is tiny compared to the energy contained in jet fuel. And that doesn't even touch on the mechanical requirements of a wing...
answered 12 hours ago
vidarlovidarlo
812614
edited 12 hours ago
answered 12 hours ago
vidarlovidarlo
812614
answered 12 hours ago
vidarlovidarlo
812614
answered 12 hours ago
vidarlovidarlo
812614
812614
$begingroup$
Right, although a not completely unconceivable setup would be to have thin-film cells on the wings instead of paint. Solar cells can be made very light. The more fundamental problem is that there's just not really much area available, especially with reasonably high aspect ratio wings – and lower aspect ratio would mean higher drag, which would again defeat the point.
$endgroup$
– leftaroundabout
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Black solar cell paint could also heat up the underlying wing structure. If aluminum, that's not good as heated fuel expands. If composites, that's not that good as heat is bad - that's why composite structure are painted white to help keep them cooler.
$endgroup$
– CrossRoads
4 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
The problem with generating "only" 20kW by solar panels is not only that it is a tiny proportion of the total, but it's more electrical power than you actually need most of the time. For example the battery backup system on a 737-800, designed to provide 30 minutes emergency power if all other power generators fail, is rated at less than 2kW. Adding yet another system to convert the tiny amount of "excess" solar energy into mechanical thrust would make the concept even less practical.
$endgroup$
– alephzero
3 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
Sure, there's lot's of small reasons why it's difficult. But those could probably be solved if it was economically viable. But it's not. It's technically difficult, and there damn close to zero reason for it.
$endgroup$
– vidarlo
3 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@alephzero I imagine that this power would be used mainly for non-critical systems, like passenger entertainment, WiFi, and power outlets.
$endgroup$
– Barmar
2 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
Right, although a not completely unconceivable setup would be to have thin-film cells on the wings instead of paint. Solar cells can be made very light. The more fundamental problem is that there's just not really much area available, especially with reasonably high aspect ratio wings – and lower aspect ratio would mean higher drag, which would again defeat the point.
$endgroup$
– leftaroundabout
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Black solar cell paint could also heat up the underlying wing structure. If aluminum, that's not good as heated fuel expands. If composites, that's not that good as heat is bad - that's why composite structure are painted white to help keep them cooler.
$endgroup$
– CrossRoads
4 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
The problem with generating "only" 20kW by solar panels is not only that it is a tiny proportion of the total, but it's more electrical power than you actually need most of the time. For example the battery backup system on a 737-800, designed to provide 30 minutes emergency power if all other power generators fail, is rated at less than 2kW. Adding yet another system to convert the tiny amount of "excess" solar energy into mechanical thrust would make the concept even less practical.
$endgroup$
– alephzero
3 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
Sure, there's lot's of small reasons why it's difficult. But those could probably be solved if it was economically viable. But it's not. It's technically difficult, and there damn close to zero reason for it.
$endgroup$
– vidarlo
3 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@alephzero I imagine that this power would be used mainly for non-critical systems, like passenger entertainment, WiFi, and power outlets.
$endgroup$
– Barmar
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Right, although a not completely unconceivable setup would be to have thin-film cells on the wings instead of paint. Solar cells can be made very light. The more fundamental problem is that there's just not really much area available, especially with reasonably high aspect ratio wings – and lower aspect ratio would mean higher drag, which would again defeat the point.
$endgroup$
– leftaroundabout
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Right, although a not completely unconceivable setup would be to have thin-film cells on the wings instead of paint. Solar cells can be made very light. The more fundamental problem is that there's just not really much area available, especially with reasonably high aspect ratio wings – and lower aspect ratio would mean higher drag, which would again defeat the point.
$endgroup$
– leftaroundabout
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Black solar cell paint could also heat up the underlying wing structure. If aluminum, that's not good as heated fuel expands. If composites, that's not that good as heat is bad - that's why composite structure are painted white to help keep them cooler.
$endgroup$
– CrossRoads
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
Black solar cell paint could also heat up the underlying wing structure. If aluminum, that's not good as heated fuel expands. If composites, that's not that good as heat is bad - that's why composite structure are painted white to help keep them cooler.
$endgroup$
– CrossRoads
4 hours ago
3
3
$begingroup$
The problem with generating "only" 20kW by solar panels is not only that it is a tiny proportion of the total, but it's more electrical power than you actually need most of the time. For example the battery backup system on a 737-800, designed to provide 30 minutes emergency power if all other power generators fail, is rated at less than 2kW. Adding yet another system to convert the tiny amount of "excess" solar energy into mechanical thrust would make the concept even less practical.
$endgroup$
– alephzero
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
The problem with generating "only" 20kW by solar panels is not only that it is a tiny proportion of the total, but it's more electrical power than you actually need most of the time. For example the battery backup system on a 737-800, designed to provide 30 minutes emergency power if all other power generators fail, is rated at less than 2kW. Adding yet another system to convert the tiny amount of "excess" solar energy into mechanical thrust would make the concept even less practical.
$endgroup$
– alephzero
3 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
Sure, there's lot's of small reasons why it's difficult. But those could probably be solved if it was economically viable. But it's not. It's technically difficult, and there damn close to zero reason for it.
$endgroup$
– vidarlo
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Sure, there's lot's of small reasons why it's difficult. But those could probably be solved if it was economically viable. But it's not. It's technically difficult, and there damn close to zero reason for it.
$endgroup$
– vidarlo
3 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@alephzero I imagine that this power would be used mainly for non-critical systems, like passenger entertainment, WiFi, and power outlets.
$endgroup$
– Barmar
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@alephzero I imagine that this power would be used mainly for non-critical systems, like passenger entertainment, WiFi, and power outlets.
$endgroup$
– Barmar
2 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
No, there are several reasons:
- Fragility v Efficiency v Weight: the most efficient solar panels are rigid and heavy, which is bad for a wing structure. Flexible and light panels do exist, but they are half the efficiency. They also have limitations to how much flexing they really can take, the constant flexing of a wing, vibrations, cycles between hot and extreme cold at altitude all make it a punishing environment for that kind of technology. Covering the fuselage would mean less flexing, but then you'd only have a few panels positioned right at any one time to create electricity
- Weight: In addition to the weight of the panels themselves you have all the other technology to make them work, like regulators, power conditioners, power storage, delivery wiring
- Complexity: This is yet another system to maintain, and it would be complicated to do so. If a panel breaks you'd have to take apart the wing to get at it
- Cost: you'd need solar panels that are efficient, flexible, durable and light. That all adds up to expensive panels, far more than is worth it
- Limited window of use: Obviously solar panels are no good at night, but they are also only generate electricity when they are oriented at least partly towards the sun. If you're going to cover the wing then the sun must be a good 30-40° up before you'll get appreciable power from them
So it's a lot of weight and cost for a technology that isn't going to generate power for much of the time the airplane is in use.
answered 7 hours ago
GdDGdD
32.4k386134
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
This answer is not really correct. (1) the actual answer is that solar cells provide what can only be described as "no" power, within rounding error. (2) the difficulties mentioned (cost, engineering difficulty etc) would, indeed, be instantly overcome if solar energy was 10,000x more powerful than it is (indeed everything on an aircraft is very expensive, difficult to make).
$endgroup$
– Fattie
7 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
I don't follow you @Fattie. Solar cells do provide power, it's why they're being installed on homes all over the place....
$endgroup$
– GdD
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
They provide a minuscul amount of power, in terms of the question asked though. Consider vid's answer. At the absolute theoretical max it would provide the equivalent of "a few KG" of jet fuel. (!) That's why I said it is zero within rounding error.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
7 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
There's more than one aspect to this @Fattie, and there was no point in repeating vidarlo's answer.
$endgroup$
– GdD
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
No, there are several reasons:
- Fragility v Efficiency v Weight: the most efficient solar panels are rigid and heavy, which is bad for a wing structure. Flexible and light panels do exist, but they are half the efficiency. They also have limitations to how much flexing they really can take, the constant flexing of a wing, vibrations, cycles between hot and extreme cold at altitude all make it a punishing environment for that kind of technology. Covering the fuselage would mean less flexing, but then you'd only have a few panels positioned right at any one time to create electricity
- Weight: In addition to the weight of the panels themselves you have all the other technology to make them work, like regulators, power conditioners, power storage, delivery wiring
- Complexity: This is yet another system to maintain, and it would be complicated to do so. If a panel breaks you'd have to take apart the wing to get at it
- Cost: you'd need solar panels that are efficient, flexible, durable and light. That all adds up to expensive panels, far more than is worth it
- Limited window of use: Obviously solar panels are no good at night, but they are also only generate electricity when they are oriented at least partly towards the sun. If you're going to cover the wing then the sun must be a good 30-40° up before you'll get appreciable power from them
So it's a lot of weight and cost for a technology that isn't going to generate power for much of the time the airplane is in use.
answered 7 hours ago
GdDGdD
32.4k386134
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
This answer is not really correct. (1) the actual answer is that solar cells provide what can only be described as "no" power, within rounding error. (2) the difficulties mentioned (cost, engineering difficulty etc) would, indeed, be instantly overcome if solar energy was 10,000x more powerful than it is (indeed everything on an aircraft is very expensive, difficult to make).
$endgroup$
– Fattie
7 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
I don't follow you @Fattie. Solar cells do provide power, it's why they're being installed on homes all over the place....
$endgroup$
– GdD
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
They provide a minuscul amount of power, in terms of the question asked though. Consider vid's answer. At the absolute theoretical max it would provide the equivalent of "a few KG" of jet fuel. (!) That's why I said it is zero within rounding error.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
7 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
There's more than one aspect to this @Fattie, and there was no point in repeating vidarlo's answer.
$endgroup$
– GdD
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
No, there are several reasons:
- Fragility v Efficiency v Weight: the most efficient solar panels are rigid and heavy, which is bad for a wing structure. Flexible and light panels do exist, but they are half the efficiency. They also have limitations to how much flexing they really can take, the constant flexing of a wing, vibrations, cycles between hot and extreme cold at altitude all make it a punishing environment for that kind of technology. Covering the fuselage would mean less flexing, but then you'd only have a few panels positioned right at any one time to create electricity
- Weight: In addition to the weight of the panels themselves you have all the other technology to make them work, like regulators, power conditioners, power storage, delivery wiring
- Complexity: This is yet another system to maintain, and it would be complicated to do so. If a panel breaks you'd have to take apart the wing to get at it
- Cost: you'd need solar panels that are efficient, flexible, durable and light. That all adds up to expensive panels, far more than is worth it
- Limited window of use: Obviously solar panels are no good at night, but they are also only generate electricity when they are oriented at least partly towards the sun. If you're going to cover the wing then the sun must be a good 30-40° up before you'll get appreciable power from them
So it's a lot of weight and cost for a technology that isn't going to generate power for much of the time the airplane is in use.
answered 7 hours ago
GdDGdD
32.4k386134
$endgroup$
No, there are several reasons:
- Fragility v Efficiency v Weight: the most efficient solar panels are rigid and heavy, which is bad for a wing structure. Flexible and light panels do exist, but they are half the efficiency. They also have limitations to how much flexing they really can take, the constant flexing of a wing, vibrations, cycles between hot and extreme cold at altitude all make it a punishing environment for that kind of technology. Covering the fuselage would mean less flexing, but then you'd only have a few panels positioned right at any one time to create electricity
- Weight: In addition to the weight of the panels themselves you have all the other technology to make them work, like regulators, power conditioners, power storage, delivery wiring
- Complexity: This is yet another system to maintain, and it would be complicated to do so. If a panel breaks you'd have to take apart the wing to get at it
- Cost: you'd need solar panels that are efficient, flexible, durable and light. That all adds up to expensive panels, far more than is worth it
- Limited window of use: Obviously solar panels are no good at night, but they are also only generate electricity when they are oriented at least partly towards the sun. If you're going to cover the wing then the sun must be a good 30-40° up before you'll get appreciable power from them
So it's a lot of weight and cost for a technology that isn't going to generate power for much of the time the airplane is in use.
answered 7 hours ago
GdDGdD
32.4k386134
answered 7 hours ago
GdDGdD
32.4k386134
answered 7 hours ago
GdDGdD
32.4k386134
answered 7 hours ago
GdDGdD
32.4k386134
32.4k386134
1
$begingroup$
This answer is not really correct. (1) the actual answer is that solar cells provide what can only be described as "no" power, within rounding error. (2) the difficulties mentioned (cost, engineering difficulty etc) would, indeed, be instantly overcome if solar energy was 10,000x more powerful than it is (indeed everything on an aircraft is very expensive, difficult to make).
$endgroup$
– Fattie
7 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
I don't follow you @Fattie. Solar cells do provide power, it's why they're being installed on homes all over the place....
$endgroup$
– GdD
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
They provide a minuscul amount of power, in terms of the question asked though. Consider vid's answer. At the absolute theoretical max it would provide the equivalent of "a few KG" of jet fuel. (!) That's why I said it is zero within rounding error.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
7 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
There's more than one aspect to this @Fattie, and there was no point in repeating vidarlo's answer.
$endgroup$
– GdD
5 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
This answer is not really correct. (1) the actual answer is that solar cells provide what can only be described as "no" power, within rounding error. (2) the difficulties mentioned (cost, engineering difficulty etc) would, indeed, be instantly overcome if solar energy was 10,000x more powerful than it is (indeed everything on an aircraft is very expensive, difficult to make).
$endgroup$
– Fattie
7 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
I don't follow you @Fattie. Solar cells do provide power, it's why they're being installed on homes all over the place....
$endgroup$
– GdD
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
They provide a minuscul amount of power, in terms of the question asked though. Consider vid's answer. At the absolute theoretical max it would provide the equivalent of "a few KG" of jet fuel. (!) That's why I said it is zero within rounding error.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
7 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
There's more than one aspect to this @Fattie, and there was no point in repeating vidarlo's answer.
$endgroup$
– GdD
5 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
This answer is not really correct. (1) the actual answer is that solar cells provide what can only be described as "no" power, within rounding error. (2) the difficulties mentioned (cost, engineering difficulty etc) would, indeed, be instantly overcome if solar energy was 10,000x more powerful than it is (indeed everything on an aircraft is very expensive, difficult to make).
$endgroup$
– Fattie
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
This answer is not really correct. (1) the actual answer is that solar cells provide what can only be described as "no" power, within rounding error. (2) the difficulties mentioned (cost, engineering difficulty etc) would, indeed, be instantly overcome if solar energy was 10,000x more powerful than it is (indeed everything on an aircraft is very expensive, difficult to make).
$endgroup$
– Fattie
7 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
I don't follow you @Fattie. Solar cells do provide power, it's why they're being installed on homes all over the place....
$endgroup$
– GdD
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I don't follow you @Fattie. Solar cells do provide power, it's why they're being installed on homes all over the place....
$endgroup$
– GdD
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
They provide a minuscul amount of power, in terms of the question asked though. Consider vid's answer. At the absolute theoretical max it would provide the equivalent of "a few KG" of jet fuel. (!) That's why I said it is zero within rounding error.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
They provide a minuscul amount of power, in terms of the question asked though. Consider vid's answer. At the absolute theoretical max it would provide the equivalent of "a few KG" of jet fuel. (!) That's why I said it is zero within rounding error.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
7 hours ago
3
3
$begingroup$
There's more than one aspect to this @Fattie, and there was no point in repeating vidarlo's answer.
$endgroup$
– GdD
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
There's more than one aspect to this @Fattie, and there was no point in repeating vidarlo's answer.
$endgroup$
– GdD
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Not purely on topic but there is a solar airplane. Solar supported airliner isn't out of the realm of possibilities, just solar tech isn't there yet. Also it would have to be economically feasible to even be considered.
Here's an article from 2016 about a solar airplane that traveled the globe.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/26/solar-impulse-plane-makes-history-completing-round-the-world-trip
answered 2 hours ago
MertymanMertyman
91
New contributor
Mertyman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
While this link may answer the question, it is better to include the essential parts of the answer here and provide the link for reference. Link-only answers can become invalid if the linked page changes. - From Review
$endgroup$
– FreeMan
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
Solar Impulse 2 is basically covered in solar panels of probably at least 20% efficiency. This gives it enough power to fly with just a single pilot, at about 60 mph during the day, or 30 mph on batteries at night. Even with 100% efficient panels, that's still nowhere near the power to carry a cabin full of people at much higher speeds. Modern high-speed air travel uses a ridiculous amount of energy; that's why it creates so much greenhouse gas emissions. It would be nice if solar flight were viable for airliners, but it doesn't look like it ever will be.
$endgroup$
– Peter Cordes
27 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Not purely on topic but there is a solar airplane. Solar supported airliner isn't out of the realm of possibilities, just solar tech isn't there yet. Also it would have to be economically feasible to even be considered.
Here's an article from 2016 about a solar airplane that traveled the globe.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/26/solar-impulse-plane-makes-history-completing-round-the-world-trip
answered 2 hours ago
MertymanMertyman
91
New contributor
Mertyman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
While this link may answer the question, it is better to include the essential parts of the answer here and provide the link for reference. Link-only answers can become invalid if the linked page changes. - From Review
$endgroup$
– FreeMan
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
Solar Impulse 2 is basically covered in solar panels of probably at least 20% efficiency. This gives it enough power to fly with just a single pilot, at about 60 mph during the day, or 30 mph on batteries at night. Even with 100% efficient panels, that's still nowhere near the power to carry a cabin full of people at much higher speeds. Modern high-speed air travel uses a ridiculous amount of energy; that's why it creates so much greenhouse gas emissions. It would be nice if solar flight were viable for airliners, but it doesn't look like it ever will be.
$endgroup$
– Peter Cordes
27 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Not purely on topic but there is a solar airplane. Solar supported airliner isn't out of the realm of possibilities, just solar tech isn't there yet. Also it would have to be economically feasible to even be considered.
Here's an article from 2016 about a solar airplane that traveled the globe.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/26/solar-impulse-plane-makes-history-completing-round-the-world-trip
answered 2 hours ago
MertymanMertyman
91
New contributor
Mertyman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
Not purely on topic but there is a solar airplane. Solar supported airliner isn't out of the realm of possibilities, just solar tech isn't there yet. Also it would have to be economically feasible to even be considered.
Here's an article from 2016 about a solar airplane that traveled the globe.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/26/solar-impulse-plane-makes-history-completing-round-the-world-trip
answered 2 hours ago
MertymanMertyman
91
New contributor
Mertyman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 2 hours ago
MertymanMertyman
91
New contributor
Mertyman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 2 hours ago
MertymanMertyman
91
answered 2 hours ago
MertymanMertyman
91
91
New contributor
Mertyman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Mertyman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Mertyman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$begingroup$
While this link may answer the question, it is better to include the essential parts of the answer here and provide the link for reference. Link-only answers can become invalid if the linked page changes. - From Review
$endgroup$
– FreeMan
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
Solar Impulse 2 is basically covered in solar panels of probably at least 20% efficiency. This gives it enough power to fly with just a single pilot, at about 60 mph during the day, or 30 mph on batteries at night. Even with 100% efficient panels, that's still nowhere near the power to carry a cabin full of people at much higher speeds. Modern high-speed air travel uses a ridiculous amount of energy; that's why it creates so much greenhouse gas emissions. It would be nice if solar flight were viable for airliners, but it doesn't look like it ever will be.
$endgroup$
– Peter Cordes
27 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While this link may answer the question, it is better to include the essential parts of the answer here and provide the link for reference. Link-only answers can become invalid if the linked page changes. - From Review
$endgroup$
– FreeMan
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
Solar Impulse 2 is basically covered in solar panels of probably at least 20% efficiency. This gives it enough power to fly with just a single pilot, at about 60 mph during the day, or 30 mph on batteries at night. Even with 100% efficient panels, that's still nowhere near the power to carry a cabin full of people at much higher speeds. Modern high-speed air travel uses a ridiculous amount of energy; that's why it creates so much greenhouse gas emissions. It would be nice if solar flight were viable for airliners, but it doesn't look like it ever will be.
$endgroup$
– Peter Cordes
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
While this link may answer the question, it is better to include the essential parts of the answer here and provide the link for reference. Link-only answers can become invalid if the linked page changes. - From Review
$endgroup$
– FreeMan
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
While this link may answer the question, it is better to include the essential parts of the answer here and provide the link for reference. Link-only answers can become invalid if the linked page changes. - From Review
$endgroup$
– FreeMan
1 hour ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Solar Impulse 2 is basically covered in solar panels of probably at least 20% efficiency. This gives it enough power to fly with just a single pilot, at about 60 mph during the day, or 30 mph on batteries at night. Even with 100% efficient panels, that's still nowhere near the power to carry a cabin full of people at much higher speeds. Modern high-speed air travel uses a ridiculous amount of energy; that's why it creates so much greenhouse gas emissions. It would be nice if solar flight were viable for airliners, but it doesn't look like it ever will be.
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– Peter Cordes
27 mins ago
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Solar Impulse 2 is basically covered in solar panels of probably at least 20% efficiency. This gives it enough power to fly with just a single pilot, at about 60 mph during the day, or 30 mph on batteries at night. Even with 100% efficient panels, that's still nowhere near the power to carry a cabin full of people at much higher speeds. Modern high-speed air travel uses a ridiculous amount of energy; that's why it creates so much greenhouse gas emissions. It would be nice if solar flight were viable for airliners, but it doesn't look like it ever will be.
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– Peter Cordes
27 mins ago
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3
$begingroup$
I'm not aware of any. And I can see several important reasons why not: solar panels are heavy, they're fragile, they require a lot of maintenance, they require a lot of wiring.
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– jwenting
13 hours ago
3
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@jwenting the actual solar panels aren't heavy at all. Most of the weight comes from structural reinforcements, which you don't need if you implement it into an existing structure such as the fuselage or wings. Nevertheless I don't think it would be worth it.
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– GittingGud
7 hours ago
2
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Solar energy is just a religion. The amount of energy gatherable per unit area is ... totally trivial. Indeed, the example of aircraft points out how utterly useless solar energy is. Solar cells are a fantastically ingenious invention for, say, calculators.
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– Fattie
7 hours ago
4
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As you include trail options, there have been at least two planes which have been powered completely by photovoltaic panels, Solar Impulse: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Impulse it isn't commercial, isn't in anything like mass production, and is very slow, but they did do a round-the-world trip in the second one.
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– Puffafish
5 hours ago
12
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@Fattie Solar energy is perfectly workable on the ground, where getting 200W per square meter is fine.
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– pjc50
4 hours ago