Frequency of inspection at vegan restaurantsParashat Shemini + ParaWhen does a kosher place need a mashgiach temidi?Is being vegan “kosher”?Buddha at Indian RestaurantsWhen did kosher bakeries, restaurants, etc. start requiring supervision?Unsupervised meat and closed restaurants/butchersNon-kosher, non-Jewish-run, Sushi RestaurantsMaris Ayin and bags from restaurantsDoes Vegan Certification Have Any Halachic Weight?Do restaurants need a kosher certificate?Can certified vegan be assumed to be pareve?May one broker the sale non kosher restaurants?

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Frequency of inspection at vegan restaurants



Parashat Shemini + ParaWhen does a kosher place need a mashgiach temidi?Is being vegan “kosher”?Buddha at Indian RestaurantsWhen did kosher bakeries, restaurants, etc. start requiring supervision?Unsupervised meat and closed restaurants/butchersNon-kosher, non-Jewish-run, Sushi RestaurantsMaris Ayin and bags from restaurantsDoes Vegan Certification Have Any Halachic Weight?Do restaurants need a kosher certificate?Can certified vegan be assumed to be pareve?May one broker the sale non kosher restaurants?










3















Does a vegan restaurant require a permanent mashgiach on the premises to be certified kosher?



  • For large factories that get a hechsher, supervision is limited to sporadic surprise inspections. (No permanent presence of inspectors.)


  • For meat or dairy restaurants, you need a permanent presence (mashgiach) because the temptation to cheat with meat or cheese is high, given the price differential. But there is no such temptation in vegan food. (I know that bugs in lettuce need to be removed, but this matters even to non-Jews, so there is no temptation to cheat.)


I conclude that surprise inspections are enough to certify a vegan restaurant as kosher. Is that the case?










share|improve this question



















  • 2





    To a non-Jew, rinsing the lettuce might be enough; if they find any dead bugs which got blood on the lettuce, rinsing it with soap would be fine. To a Jew, technically the soap makes it נותן טעם לפגם, but ideally we try to avoid such scenarios. Not to mention that a non-Jew might not check as thoroughly as a Jew would.

    – DonielF
    5 hours ago






  • 2





    This probably varies depending on the certifying agency.

    – Daniel
    5 hours ago












  • @DonielF that's why there's Hashgacha. This isn't asking about an uncertified vegan restaurant

    – Double AA
    4 hours ago












  • Possible duplicate of When does a kosher place need a mashgiach temidi?

    – Salmononius2
    2 hours ago











  • In a Vegan place, the mashgiach often checks the vegetables for insects - which is quite nearly a full-time job.

    – LN6595
    2 hours ago















3















Does a vegan restaurant require a permanent mashgiach on the premises to be certified kosher?



  • For large factories that get a hechsher, supervision is limited to sporadic surprise inspections. (No permanent presence of inspectors.)


  • For meat or dairy restaurants, you need a permanent presence (mashgiach) because the temptation to cheat with meat or cheese is high, given the price differential. But there is no such temptation in vegan food. (I know that bugs in lettuce need to be removed, but this matters even to non-Jews, so there is no temptation to cheat.)


I conclude that surprise inspections are enough to certify a vegan restaurant as kosher. Is that the case?










share|improve this question



















  • 2





    To a non-Jew, rinsing the lettuce might be enough; if they find any dead bugs which got blood on the lettuce, rinsing it with soap would be fine. To a Jew, technically the soap makes it נותן טעם לפגם, but ideally we try to avoid such scenarios. Not to mention that a non-Jew might not check as thoroughly as a Jew would.

    – DonielF
    5 hours ago






  • 2





    This probably varies depending on the certifying agency.

    – Daniel
    5 hours ago












  • @DonielF that's why there's Hashgacha. This isn't asking about an uncertified vegan restaurant

    – Double AA
    4 hours ago












  • Possible duplicate of When does a kosher place need a mashgiach temidi?

    – Salmononius2
    2 hours ago











  • In a Vegan place, the mashgiach often checks the vegetables for insects - which is quite nearly a full-time job.

    – LN6595
    2 hours ago













3












3








3








Does a vegan restaurant require a permanent mashgiach on the premises to be certified kosher?



  • For large factories that get a hechsher, supervision is limited to sporadic surprise inspections. (No permanent presence of inspectors.)


  • For meat or dairy restaurants, you need a permanent presence (mashgiach) because the temptation to cheat with meat or cheese is high, given the price differential. But there is no such temptation in vegan food. (I know that bugs in lettuce need to be removed, but this matters even to non-Jews, so there is no temptation to cheat.)


I conclude that surprise inspections are enough to certify a vegan restaurant as kosher. Is that the case?










share|improve this question
















Does a vegan restaurant require a permanent mashgiach on the premises to be certified kosher?



  • For large factories that get a hechsher, supervision is limited to sporadic surprise inspections. (No permanent presence of inspectors.)


  • For meat or dairy restaurants, you need a permanent presence (mashgiach) because the temptation to cheat with meat or cheese is high, given the price differential. But there is no such temptation in vegan food. (I know that bugs in lettuce need to be removed, but this matters even to non-Jews, so there is no temptation to cheat.)


I conclude that surprise inspections are enough to certify a vegan restaurant as kosher. Is that the case?







kashrut-kosher hechsher-certification






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 6 mins ago









mbloch

26.8k545133




26.8k545133










asked 5 hours ago









Maurice MizrahiMaurice Mizrahi

2,177315




2,177315







  • 2





    To a non-Jew, rinsing the lettuce might be enough; if they find any dead bugs which got blood on the lettuce, rinsing it with soap would be fine. To a Jew, technically the soap makes it נותן טעם לפגם, but ideally we try to avoid such scenarios. Not to mention that a non-Jew might not check as thoroughly as a Jew would.

    – DonielF
    5 hours ago






  • 2





    This probably varies depending on the certifying agency.

    – Daniel
    5 hours ago












  • @DonielF that's why there's Hashgacha. This isn't asking about an uncertified vegan restaurant

    – Double AA
    4 hours ago












  • Possible duplicate of When does a kosher place need a mashgiach temidi?

    – Salmononius2
    2 hours ago











  • In a Vegan place, the mashgiach often checks the vegetables for insects - which is quite nearly a full-time job.

    – LN6595
    2 hours ago












  • 2





    To a non-Jew, rinsing the lettuce might be enough; if they find any dead bugs which got blood on the lettuce, rinsing it with soap would be fine. To a Jew, technically the soap makes it נותן טעם לפגם, but ideally we try to avoid such scenarios. Not to mention that a non-Jew might not check as thoroughly as a Jew would.

    – DonielF
    5 hours ago






  • 2





    This probably varies depending on the certifying agency.

    – Daniel
    5 hours ago












  • @DonielF that's why there's Hashgacha. This isn't asking about an uncertified vegan restaurant

    – Double AA
    4 hours ago












  • Possible duplicate of When does a kosher place need a mashgiach temidi?

    – Salmononius2
    2 hours ago











  • In a Vegan place, the mashgiach often checks the vegetables for insects - which is quite nearly a full-time job.

    – LN6595
    2 hours ago







2




2





To a non-Jew, rinsing the lettuce might be enough; if they find any dead bugs which got blood on the lettuce, rinsing it with soap would be fine. To a Jew, technically the soap makes it נותן טעם לפגם, but ideally we try to avoid such scenarios. Not to mention that a non-Jew might not check as thoroughly as a Jew would.

– DonielF
5 hours ago





To a non-Jew, rinsing the lettuce might be enough; if they find any dead bugs which got blood on the lettuce, rinsing it with soap would be fine. To a Jew, technically the soap makes it נותן טעם לפגם, but ideally we try to avoid such scenarios. Not to mention that a non-Jew might not check as thoroughly as a Jew would.

– DonielF
5 hours ago




2




2





This probably varies depending on the certifying agency.

– Daniel
5 hours ago






This probably varies depending on the certifying agency.

– Daniel
5 hours ago














@DonielF that's why there's Hashgacha. This isn't asking about an uncertified vegan restaurant

– Double AA
4 hours ago






@DonielF that's why there's Hashgacha. This isn't asking about an uncertified vegan restaurant

– Double AA
4 hours ago














Possible duplicate of When does a kosher place need a mashgiach temidi?

– Salmononius2
2 hours ago





Possible duplicate of When does a kosher place need a mashgiach temidi?

– Salmononius2
2 hours ago













In a Vegan place, the mashgiach often checks the vegetables for insects - which is quite nearly a full-time job.

– LN6595
2 hours ago





In a Vegan place, the mashgiach often checks the vegetables for insects - which is quite nearly a full-time job.

– LN6595
2 hours ago










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















2














It seems to me that a constant mashgiach would still be required.



For background, there are 4 main problems with a vegan restaurant without any mashgiach, as summarized from ok.org, and chabad.org:



  1. Vegetables can often have insects. The Vegan Society allows for a minute quantity of animal products to be included in food advertised as 'vegan'. That does not, however, make the food kosher.

  2. A second issue is the restaurant equipment. Many restaurants use pre-owned utensils. It is not possible to know if the equipment was only used for kosher food (also unlikely). Although there is a heter if the vessels were not used for 24 hours (ein ben yomo), that is only permissible b'dieved. But even with that, employees will often use restaurant equipment to prepare their own food. Therefore, even ein ben yomo will not help.

  3. A 3rd problem is that the food itself is likely to be bishul akum. Bishul akum is permitted by a) food that is edible raw, and b) food that is not fit to be served by a king's table. Granted, most food will fall into either one of these categories, but other foods, like fancy potatoes, or grains and rice, will be prohibited because of bishul akum.

  4. Wines and grape juice need a valid hechsher. The restaurant may not have a wine list, but these beverages may be used as ingredients for some dishes. (I haven't found a source for this, but it is also possible that if they wine is not mevushal, there is also the problem of yayin neshech.)

Regarding factories only requiring surprise mashgichim, that is the exception, not the rule. A sporadic mashgiach only helps if we're afraid of intentional cheating in a long term scheme, in a case where if the mashgiach shows up unexpected he is very likely to catch them in the act. However, in the case of the vegan restaurant, (as you yourself said) we are not worried about intentional cheating, as the prices are similar (also R' Moshe's heter of uman lo mera umnutei-they won't risk their business by buying nonkosher ingredients). Because we are afraid of innocent, unintentional mistakes which may happen at any time, the restaurant will need a constant mashgiach. (For more info, see Torah Musings)






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    @Rafael -- OK, take a food factory that CAN be certified with only surprise inspections. How does a vegan restaurant differ from IT? The workers can make "innocent mistakes" in both.

    – Maurice Mizrahi
    3 hours ago












  • @MauriceMizrahi, look at problems 2&3. Factory workers do not use factory equipment to prepare their own food. I would also assume for a more simple operation at a factory bishul akum is unlikely to occur.

    – Rafael
    2 hours ago


















1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









2














It seems to me that a constant mashgiach would still be required.



For background, there are 4 main problems with a vegan restaurant without any mashgiach, as summarized from ok.org, and chabad.org:



  1. Vegetables can often have insects. The Vegan Society allows for a minute quantity of animal products to be included in food advertised as 'vegan'. That does not, however, make the food kosher.

  2. A second issue is the restaurant equipment. Many restaurants use pre-owned utensils. It is not possible to know if the equipment was only used for kosher food (also unlikely). Although there is a heter if the vessels were not used for 24 hours (ein ben yomo), that is only permissible b'dieved. But even with that, employees will often use restaurant equipment to prepare their own food. Therefore, even ein ben yomo will not help.

  3. A 3rd problem is that the food itself is likely to be bishul akum. Bishul akum is permitted by a) food that is edible raw, and b) food that is not fit to be served by a king's table. Granted, most food will fall into either one of these categories, but other foods, like fancy potatoes, or grains and rice, will be prohibited because of bishul akum.

  4. Wines and grape juice need a valid hechsher. The restaurant may not have a wine list, but these beverages may be used as ingredients for some dishes. (I haven't found a source for this, but it is also possible that if they wine is not mevushal, there is also the problem of yayin neshech.)

Regarding factories only requiring surprise mashgichim, that is the exception, not the rule. A sporadic mashgiach only helps if we're afraid of intentional cheating in a long term scheme, in a case where if the mashgiach shows up unexpected he is very likely to catch them in the act. However, in the case of the vegan restaurant, (as you yourself said) we are not worried about intentional cheating, as the prices are similar (also R' Moshe's heter of uman lo mera umnutei-they won't risk their business by buying nonkosher ingredients). Because we are afraid of innocent, unintentional mistakes which may happen at any time, the restaurant will need a constant mashgiach. (For more info, see Torah Musings)






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    @Rafael -- OK, take a food factory that CAN be certified with only surprise inspections. How does a vegan restaurant differ from IT? The workers can make "innocent mistakes" in both.

    – Maurice Mizrahi
    3 hours ago












  • @MauriceMizrahi, look at problems 2&3. Factory workers do not use factory equipment to prepare their own food. I would also assume for a more simple operation at a factory bishul akum is unlikely to occur.

    – Rafael
    2 hours ago















2














It seems to me that a constant mashgiach would still be required.



For background, there are 4 main problems with a vegan restaurant without any mashgiach, as summarized from ok.org, and chabad.org:



  1. Vegetables can often have insects. The Vegan Society allows for a minute quantity of animal products to be included in food advertised as 'vegan'. That does not, however, make the food kosher.

  2. A second issue is the restaurant equipment. Many restaurants use pre-owned utensils. It is not possible to know if the equipment was only used for kosher food (also unlikely). Although there is a heter if the vessels were not used for 24 hours (ein ben yomo), that is only permissible b'dieved. But even with that, employees will often use restaurant equipment to prepare their own food. Therefore, even ein ben yomo will not help.

  3. A 3rd problem is that the food itself is likely to be bishul akum. Bishul akum is permitted by a) food that is edible raw, and b) food that is not fit to be served by a king's table. Granted, most food will fall into either one of these categories, but other foods, like fancy potatoes, or grains and rice, will be prohibited because of bishul akum.

  4. Wines and grape juice need a valid hechsher. The restaurant may not have a wine list, but these beverages may be used as ingredients for some dishes. (I haven't found a source for this, but it is also possible that if they wine is not mevushal, there is also the problem of yayin neshech.)

Regarding factories only requiring surprise mashgichim, that is the exception, not the rule. A sporadic mashgiach only helps if we're afraid of intentional cheating in a long term scheme, in a case where if the mashgiach shows up unexpected he is very likely to catch them in the act. However, in the case of the vegan restaurant, (as you yourself said) we are not worried about intentional cheating, as the prices are similar (also R' Moshe's heter of uman lo mera umnutei-they won't risk their business by buying nonkosher ingredients). Because we are afraid of innocent, unintentional mistakes which may happen at any time, the restaurant will need a constant mashgiach. (For more info, see Torah Musings)






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    @Rafael -- OK, take a food factory that CAN be certified with only surprise inspections. How does a vegan restaurant differ from IT? The workers can make "innocent mistakes" in both.

    – Maurice Mizrahi
    3 hours ago












  • @MauriceMizrahi, look at problems 2&3. Factory workers do not use factory equipment to prepare their own food. I would also assume for a more simple operation at a factory bishul akum is unlikely to occur.

    – Rafael
    2 hours ago













2












2








2







It seems to me that a constant mashgiach would still be required.



For background, there are 4 main problems with a vegan restaurant without any mashgiach, as summarized from ok.org, and chabad.org:



  1. Vegetables can often have insects. The Vegan Society allows for a minute quantity of animal products to be included in food advertised as 'vegan'. That does not, however, make the food kosher.

  2. A second issue is the restaurant equipment. Many restaurants use pre-owned utensils. It is not possible to know if the equipment was only used for kosher food (also unlikely). Although there is a heter if the vessels were not used for 24 hours (ein ben yomo), that is only permissible b'dieved. But even with that, employees will often use restaurant equipment to prepare their own food. Therefore, even ein ben yomo will not help.

  3. A 3rd problem is that the food itself is likely to be bishul akum. Bishul akum is permitted by a) food that is edible raw, and b) food that is not fit to be served by a king's table. Granted, most food will fall into either one of these categories, but other foods, like fancy potatoes, or grains and rice, will be prohibited because of bishul akum.

  4. Wines and grape juice need a valid hechsher. The restaurant may not have a wine list, but these beverages may be used as ingredients for some dishes. (I haven't found a source for this, but it is also possible that if they wine is not mevushal, there is also the problem of yayin neshech.)

Regarding factories only requiring surprise mashgichim, that is the exception, not the rule. A sporadic mashgiach only helps if we're afraid of intentional cheating in a long term scheme, in a case where if the mashgiach shows up unexpected he is very likely to catch them in the act. However, in the case of the vegan restaurant, (as you yourself said) we are not worried about intentional cheating, as the prices are similar (also R' Moshe's heter of uman lo mera umnutei-they won't risk their business by buying nonkosher ingredients). Because we are afraid of innocent, unintentional mistakes which may happen at any time, the restaurant will need a constant mashgiach. (For more info, see Torah Musings)






share|improve this answer















It seems to me that a constant mashgiach would still be required.



For background, there are 4 main problems with a vegan restaurant without any mashgiach, as summarized from ok.org, and chabad.org:



  1. Vegetables can often have insects. The Vegan Society allows for a minute quantity of animal products to be included in food advertised as 'vegan'. That does not, however, make the food kosher.

  2. A second issue is the restaurant equipment. Many restaurants use pre-owned utensils. It is not possible to know if the equipment was only used for kosher food (also unlikely). Although there is a heter if the vessels were not used for 24 hours (ein ben yomo), that is only permissible b'dieved. But even with that, employees will often use restaurant equipment to prepare their own food. Therefore, even ein ben yomo will not help.

  3. A 3rd problem is that the food itself is likely to be bishul akum. Bishul akum is permitted by a) food that is edible raw, and b) food that is not fit to be served by a king's table. Granted, most food will fall into either one of these categories, but other foods, like fancy potatoes, or grains and rice, will be prohibited because of bishul akum.

  4. Wines and grape juice need a valid hechsher. The restaurant may not have a wine list, but these beverages may be used as ingredients for some dishes. (I haven't found a source for this, but it is also possible that if they wine is not mevushal, there is also the problem of yayin neshech.)

Regarding factories only requiring surprise mashgichim, that is the exception, not the rule. A sporadic mashgiach only helps if we're afraid of intentional cheating in a long term scheme, in a case where if the mashgiach shows up unexpected he is very likely to catch them in the act. However, in the case of the vegan restaurant, (as you yourself said) we are not worried about intentional cheating, as the prices are similar (also R' Moshe's heter of uman lo mera umnutei-they won't risk their business by buying nonkosher ingredients). Because we are afraid of innocent, unintentional mistakes which may happen at any time, the restaurant will need a constant mashgiach. (For more info, see Torah Musings)







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 2 hours ago









Double AA

78.4k6189414




78.4k6189414










answered 3 hours ago









RafaelRafael

767216




767216







  • 1





    @Rafael -- OK, take a food factory that CAN be certified with only surprise inspections. How does a vegan restaurant differ from IT? The workers can make "innocent mistakes" in both.

    – Maurice Mizrahi
    3 hours ago












  • @MauriceMizrahi, look at problems 2&3. Factory workers do not use factory equipment to prepare their own food. I would also assume for a more simple operation at a factory bishul akum is unlikely to occur.

    – Rafael
    2 hours ago












  • 1





    @Rafael -- OK, take a food factory that CAN be certified with only surprise inspections. How does a vegan restaurant differ from IT? The workers can make "innocent mistakes" in both.

    – Maurice Mizrahi
    3 hours ago












  • @MauriceMizrahi, look at problems 2&3. Factory workers do not use factory equipment to prepare their own food. I would also assume for a more simple operation at a factory bishul akum is unlikely to occur.

    – Rafael
    2 hours ago







1




1





@Rafael -- OK, take a food factory that CAN be certified with only surprise inspections. How does a vegan restaurant differ from IT? The workers can make "innocent mistakes" in both.

– Maurice Mizrahi
3 hours ago






@Rafael -- OK, take a food factory that CAN be certified with only surprise inspections. How does a vegan restaurant differ from IT? The workers can make "innocent mistakes" in both.

– Maurice Mizrahi
3 hours ago














@MauriceMizrahi, look at problems 2&3. Factory workers do not use factory equipment to prepare their own food. I would also assume for a more simple operation at a factory bishul akum is unlikely to occur.

– Rafael
2 hours ago





@MauriceMizrahi, look at problems 2&3. Factory workers do not use factory equipment to prepare their own food. I would also assume for a more simple operation at a factory bishul akum is unlikely to occur.

– Rafael
2 hours ago



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