Why Choose Less Effective Armour Types?How would metal cloth affect armor design?Is diamond armor better than traditional armor?Would armour made of spider silk work?How would medieval combat differ if its arms and armour were refashioned today?Can graphene claws cut through steel armorWhat are the priority plate parts to reinforce chainmail other than cuirass?Why can't a Tercio use crossbows and pikes?Release the Dogs of War: use for my War Hounds in Medieval WarfareMedieval Windmills and MillingFull plate - ways to make individual suits look more distinct
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Why Choose Less Effective Armour Types?
How would metal cloth affect armor design?Is diamond armor better than traditional armor?Would armour made of spider silk work?How would medieval combat differ if its arms and armour were refashioned today?Can graphene claws cut through steel armorWhat are the priority plate parts to reinforce chainmail other than cuirass?Why can't a Tercio use crossbows and pikes?Release the Dogs of War: use for my War Hounds in Medieval WarfareMedieval Windmills and MillingFull plate - ways to make individual suits look more distinct
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Full steel plate armour is seen as the most effective type of armour from the Medieval period, viewed by some as the pinnacle of medieval/early-renaissance armour. It’s rounded surfaces and layers of padding and chain mail underneath the plates reduced the wearer’s chance of injury drastically. It also allows for a high level of mobility and articulation without restricting the wearer too much.
In our own history, we have developed armour such as brigandine, lamellar, a coat of plates, segmented plates (like the lorica segmentata), gambeson, chain mail, we’ve even made armour out of wood and bone. However, none of these are quite as protective and mobile as a suit of full steel plate armour. Indeed, of these armours mentioned, some are more effective than others, almost in a hierachy.
With this in mind, in a world where multiple types of armour co-exist in the same place at the same time, why would people actively choose not to wear the most effective armour, such as full steel plate, if it was available?
For this question, assume that monetary cost is not a factor. The reason for this is that it is fairly obvious that people would not buy better armour if they could not afford it, so cost of manufacture and sale should not be factored into answers.
Also assume that the availability of resources is not a factor. Again, it is fairly obvious that if you lacked the resources to produce more effective armour, you would have to produce something less effective.
The best answers should cover why less effective armour would be chosen on both an individual level (such as an adventurer, mercenary or other form of lone traveler) and a militaristic level (such as an army or other large group of organised fighters).
Magic and monsters may factor into your decisions but this is not required for a good answer.
warfare medieval combat armors
edited 40 mins ago
Bob Jarvis
44349
asked 5 hours ago
Liam MorrisLiam Morris
215210
New contributor
Liam Morris is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
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show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Full steel plate armour is seen as the most effective type of armour from the Medieval period, viewed by some as the pinnacle of medieval/early-renaissance armour. It’s rounded surfaces and layers of padding and chain mail underneath the plates reduced the wearer’s chance of injury drastically. It also allows for a high level of mobility and articulation without restricting the wearer too much.
In our own history, we have developed armour such as brigandine, lamellar, a coat of plates, segmented plates (like the lorica segmentata), gambeson, chain mail, we’ve even made armour out of wood and bone. However, none of these are quite as protective and mobile as a suit of full steel plate armour. Indeed, of these armours mentioned, some are more effective than others, almost in a hierachy.
With this in mind, in a world where multiple types of armour co-exist in the same place at the same time, why would people actively choose not to wear the most effective armour, such as full steel plate, if it was available?
For this question, assume that monetary cost is not a factor. The reason for this is that it is fairly obvious that people would not buy better armour if they could not afford it, so cost of manufacture and sale should not be factored into answers.
Also assume that the availability of resources is not a factor. Again, it is fairly obvious that if you lacked the resources to produce more effective armour, you would have to produce something less effective.
The best answers should cover why less effective armour would be chosen on both an individual level (such as an adventurer, mercenary or other form of lone traveler) and a militaristic level (such as an army or other large group of organised fighters).
Magic and monsters may factor into your decisions but this is not required for a good answer.
warfare medieval combat armors
edited 40 mins ago
Bob Jarvis
44349
asked 5 hours ago
Liam MorrisLiam Morris
215210
New contributor
Liam Morris is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
cost often comes in forms other than the initial outlay of funds. You want to go 'adventuring' in your plate armor? You going to ask those brigands to not begin their ambush until you have your armor on? Or do you live in it? If you live it in you're going to need to replace parts of it every week, even without any combat. No asphalt roads bro. Feel like you're walking through a swamp on the best of days, leave Scotland and you're gonna boil to death. Did you remember to bring that mobile forge along with you, btw?
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– Giu Piete
5 hours ago
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Effectiveness depends on context.
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– Renan
4 hours ago
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@Renan By effectiveness i mean how well it serves it’s intended function, that being protecting the wearer and allowing them mobility. Though what you say is true, full plate would not be as effective in a swamp for example as there would be reduced mobility.
$endgroup$
– Liam Morris
4 hours ago
2
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If I may suggest a meta-answer which will cover all answers: No rational individual would ever choose a less effective armor over a more effective armor. However, their definition of "effective" may be different than you, as the worldbuilder, first think.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
4 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@LiamMorris It sounds to me like the higher ranking Roman soldiers found part of the effectiveness of their head-dress was in its interpersonal effects, and they valued those effects more than the lost effects.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
3 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Full steel plate armour is seen as the most effective type of armour from the Medieval period, viewed by some as the pinnacle of medieval/early-renaissance armour. It’s rounded surfaces and layers of padding and chain mail underneath the plates reduced the wearer’s chance of injury drastically. It also allows for a high level of mobility and articulation without restricting the wearer too much.
In our own history, we have developed armour such as brigandine, lamellar, a coat of plates, segmented plates (like the lorica segmentata), gambeson, chain mail, we’ve even made armour out of wood and bone. However, none of these are quite as protective and mobile as a suit of full steel plate armour. Indeed, of these armours mentioned, some are more effective than others, almost in a hierachy.
With this in mind, in a world where multiple types of armour co-exist in the same place at the same time, why would people actively choose not to wear the most effective armour, such as full steel plate, if it was available?
For this question, assume that monetary cost is not a factor. The reason for this is that it is fairly obvious that people would not buy better armour if they could not afford it, so cost of manufacture and sale should not be factored into answers.
Also assume that the availability of resources is not a factor. Again, it is fairly obvious that if you lacked the resources to produce more effective armour, you would have to produce something less effective.
The best answers should cover why less effective armour would be chosen on both an individual level (such as an adventurer, mercenary or other form of lone traveler) and a militaristic level (such as an army or other large group of organised fighters).
Magic and monsters may factor into your decisions but this is not required for a good answer.
warfare medieval combat armors
edited 40 mins ago
Bob Jarvis
44349
asked 5 hours ago
Liam MorrisLiam Morris
215210
New contributor
Liam Morris is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
Full steel plate armour is seen as the most effective type of armour from the Medieval period, viewed by some as the pinnacle of medieval/early-renaissance armour. It’s rounded surfaces and layers of padding and chain mail underneath the plates reduced the wearer’s chance of injury drastically. It also allows for a high level of mobility and articulation without restricting the wearer too much.
In our own history, we have developed armour such as brigandine, lamellar, a coat of plates, segmented plates (like the lorica segmentata), gambeson, chain mail, we’ve even made armour out of wood and bone. However, none of these are quite as protective and mobile as a suit of full steel plate armour. Indeed, of these armours mentioned, some are more effective than others, almost in a hierachy.
With this in mind, in a world where multiple types of armour co-exist in the same place at the same time, why would people actively choose not to wear the most effective armour, such as full steel plate, if it was available?
For this question, assume that monetary cost is not a factor. The reason for this is that it is fairly obvious that people would not buy better armour if they could not afford it, so cost of manufacture and sale should not be factored into answers.
Also assume that the availability of resources is not a factor. Again, it is fairly obvious that if you lacked the resources to produce more effective armour, you would have to produce something less effective.
The best answers should cover why less effective armour would be chosen on both an individual level (such as an adventurer, mercenary or other form of lone traveler) and a militaristic level (such as an army or other large group of organised fighters).
Magic and monsters may factor into your decisions but this is not required for a good answer.
warfare medieval combat armors
warfare medieval combat armors
edited 40 mins ago
Bob Jarvis
44349
asked 5 hours ago
Liam MorrisLiam Morris
215210
New contributor
Liam Morris is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 40 mins ago
Bob Jarvis
44349
asked 5 hours ago
Liam MorrisLiam Morris
215210
New contributor
Liam Morris is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 40 mins ago
Bob Jarvis
44349
edited 40 mins ago
Bob Jarvis
44349
edited 40 mins ago
Bob Jarvis
44349
44349
asked 5 hours ago
Liam MorrisLiam Morris
215210
New contributor
Liam Morris is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 5 hours ago
Liam MorrisLiam Morris
215210
asked 5 hours ago
Liam MorrisLiam Morris
215210
215210
New contributor
Liam Morris is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Liam Morris is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Liam Morris is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
$begingroup$
cost often comes in forms other than the initial outlay of funds. You want to go 'adventuring' in your plate armor? You going to ask those brigands to not begin their ambush until you have your armor on? Or do you live in it? If you live it in you're going to need to replace parts of it every week, even without any combat. No asphalt roads bro. Feel like you're walking through a swamp on the best of days, leave Scotland and you're gonna boil to death. Did you remember to bring that mobile forge along with you, btw?
$endgroup$
– Giu Piete
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Effectiveness depends on context.
$endgroup$
– Renan
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Renan By effectiveness i mean how well it serves it’s intended function, that being protecting the wearer and allowing them mobility. Though what you say is true, full plate would not be as effective in a swamp for example as there would be reduced mobility.
$endgroup$
– Liam Morris
4 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
If I may suggest a meta-answer which will cover all answers: No rational individual would ever choose a less effective armor over a more effective armor. However, their definition of "effective" may be different than you, as the worldbuilder, first think.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
4 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@LiamMorris It sounds to me like the higher ranking Roman soldiers found part of the effectiveness of their head-dress was in its interpersonal effects, and they valued those effects more than the lost effects.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
3 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
1
$begingroup$
cost often comes in forms other than the initial outlay of funds. You want to go 'adventuring' in your plate armor? You going to ask those brigands to not begin their ambush until you have your armor on? Or do you live in it? If you live it in you're going to need to replace parts of it every week, even without any combat. No asphalt roads bro. Feel like you're walking through a swamp on the best of days, leave Scotland and you're gonna boil to death. Did you remember to bring that mobile forge along with you, btw?
$endgroup$
– Giu Piete
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Effectiveness depends on context.
$endgroup$
– Renan
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Renan By effectiveness i mean how well it serves it’s intended function, that being protecting the wearer and allowing them mobility. Though what you say is true, full plate would not be as effective in a swamp for example as there would be reduced mobility.
$endgroup$
– Liam Morris
4 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
If I may suggest a meta-answer which will cover all answers: No rational individual would ever choose a less effective armor over a more effective armor. However, their definition of "effective" may be different than you, as the worldbuilder, first think.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
4 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@LiamMorris It sounds to me like the higher ranking Roman soldiers found part of the effectiveness of their head-dress was in its interpersonal effects, and they valued those effects more than the lost effects.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
3 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
cost often comes in forms other than the initial outlay of funds. You want to go 'adventuring' in your plate armor? You going to ask those brigands to not begin their ambush until you have your armor on? Or do you live in it? If you live it in you're going to need to replace parts of it every week, even without any combat. No asphalt roads bro. Feel like you're walking through a swamp on the best of days, leave Scotland and you're gonna boil to death. Did you remember to bring that mobile forge along with you, btw?
$endgroup$
– Giu Piete
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
cost often comes in forms other than the initial outlay of funds. You want to go 'adventuring' in your plate armor? You going to ask those brigands to not begin their ambush until you have your armor on? Or do you live in it? If you live it in you're going to need to replace parts of it every week, even without any combat. No asphalt roads bro. Feel like you're walking through a swamp on the best of days, leave Scotland and you're gonna boil to death. Did you remember to bring that mobile forge along with you, btw?
$endgroup$
– Giu Piete
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Effectiveness depends on context.
$endgroup$
– Renan
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
Effectiveness depends on context.
$endgroup$
– Renan
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Renan By effectiveness i mean how well it serves it’s intended function, that being protecting the wearer and allowing them mobility. Though what you say is true, full plate would not be as effective in a swamp for example as there would be reduced mobility.
$endgroup$
– Liam Morris
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Renan By effectiveness i mean how well it serves it’s intended function, that being protecting the wearer and allowing them mobility. Though what you say is true, full plate would not be as effective in a swamp for example as there would be reduced mobility.
$endgroup$
– Liam Morris
4 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
If I may suggest a meta-answer which will cover all answers: No rational individual would ever choose a less effective armor over a more effective armor. However, their definition of "effective" may be different than you, as the worldbuilder, first think.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
If I may suggest a meta-answer which will cover all answers: No rational individual would ever choose a less effective armor over a more effective armor. However, their definition of "effective" may be different than you, as the worldbuilder, first think.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
4 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@LiamMorris It sounds to me like the higher ranking Roman soldiers found part of the effectiveness of their head-dress was in its interpersonal effects, and they valued those effects more than the lost effects.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@LiamMorris It sounds to me like the higher ranking Roman soldiers found part of the effectiveness of their head-dress was in its interpersonal effects, and they valued those effects more than the lost effects.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
3 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
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Comfort, individually
Plate mail is heavy and hot, which is why you don't want to wear it all the time. Instead, you'd strip down your armor while you weren't seriously expecting combat, leaving only the gambeson (cloth padding) or gambeson and chain mail. Much more comfortable, but now you're vulnerable.
Logistics, on an organization level
Let's say you've got an army. One of the important bits about your typical medieval army is how far they can march in a day for a given level of exhaustion. So your army isn't going to be wearing plate mail 24/7. If they're not carrying their armor on their persons, it has to be brought on carts. This means more carts, more draft animals to pull the carts, and more resources for those. It adds up. You also need more blacksmiths to help maintain the armor.
Training
First off, many medieval armies were levies/drafts, were they basically grab one out of every N men in an area. These are not professional soldiers and they would not know how to fight in plate mail, both because of weight and because of the vision impairment. It would take longer to train them in fighting in plate mail.
Don and doff
Plate mail is not easy to get into and out of. It usually required someone to help, and if your entire army is wearing plate mail, along with the gloves (that need to be secured) then you'll have problems.
This is also important because you can't always predict when combat will happen long enough in advance to get into armor. If you're sleeping, outside your armor (see comfort) then it will take you a bit to get into armor. In which time someone will probably stab and/or shoot you.
Trust
In modern times, we have these things called security clearances, because we don't trust everyone. You can't fly a fighter jet without passing a background check, nor will you be hired as an information security officer.
The same principle applies here: as a government, I don't want to give every Tom, Dick, and Harry armor that makes them very hard to put down. I don't trust them. That's reserved for my most loyal troops and bodyguards. With an equipment advantage, my palace guards and bodyguards can compensate for numerical or informational (i.e. ambush) disadvantages.
answered 5 hours ago
ltmauveltmauve
2,395616
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I like your idea on trust, it is not something i considered. Perhaps you’d need a license of some sort to own full steel plate, similar to how you need a license to own a gun in our modern world.
$endgroup$
– Liam Morris
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Say we have a knight in full steel armor, fighting a guy in practically nothing. Certainly, the armor should be useful. However, fire and blunt weapons will both be worse for the knight, because dodging is presumably far harder. A skilled fighter also may opt for lighter armor to outmaneuver the knight, such as using a sword (armor blocks slash attacks), and stabbing joints with the faster and more accurate movement the light/no armor can allow.
Perhaps armor stands out. A knight in full metal must be a clear target to raiders than what appears to be a poor "unarmed" beggar/peasant.
Armor also is very annoying in terms of heat (protective fencing gear is bad enough with sweat, I'd hate to imagine 60 pounds of armor).
Traveling also would probably be bad in armor. I highly doubt armor is comfortable for normal situations, nor would I believe knights would always wear armor at all times (sounds like paranoia to me).
Another thing I'd like to note: Spartans would go into battle mostly naked with a shield, breastplate, and helmet. I don't have any idea of the accuracy to this statement, but this getup will already weigh more than 50 pounds in metal, explaining why minimal armor would be favorable.
As a final side note, there is something called the "murder stroke", slamming the hilt of a sword into a helmeted person's skull. Regardless of armor, the impact should still kill. If I face a swordsman of considerable skill, I personally would take the no-armor route and sprint full speed away from them, if I could.
answered 4 hours ago
FiremorfoxFiremorfox
434
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"However, fire and blunt weapons will both be worse for the knight, because dodging is presumably far harder. A skilled fighter also may opt for lighter armor to outmaneuver the knight, such as using a sword (armor blocks slash attacks), and stabbing joints with the faster and more accurate movement the light/no armor can allow." Have you ever actually fought in armor? While I don't have experience in plate, even plate users stay very mobile and can still do acrobatic tricks. When I fight people dressed in sports cloth wearing mail or gambeson there is no harder dodging or faster attacking.
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– TheDyingOfLight
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Armor was chosen based on how good it was for its actual purpose. This is the same way modern armies use to choose their equipment.
As an example the rifles used in the world wars had more powerful cartridges and were expected to be accurate to greater distances than modern assault rifles. And you could get them in automatic versions even. But starting in the 30s (I think) more and more armies realized that most soldiers never or extremely rarely shoot beyond 150 to 200 meters. Or need the extra penetration that a full powered rifle cartridge gives.
This means that the rifles are not really better than an assault rifle in actual use. Equipping your common soldiers with those will give you no benefit over using cheaper and lighter assault rifles shooting weaker and cheaper ammunition.
Same logic applies with arming medieval armies with armor. A plate mail is heavy and expensive armor designed for repeatedly getting hit by heavy weapons without taking lethal damage. And it works very well.
But most medieval soldiers do not actually spend that much time getting repeatedly hit by heavy weapons just like most modern soldiers do not spend much time taking long range shots.
Ranged and light units are supposed to avoid taking heavy hits altogether. Equipping them with heavy armor would just make them slower and encourage them to do things they really should not be doing.
Even normal front line melee units where soldiers do get hit with heavy weapons do not really need soldiers to take repeated heavy hits. There are other soldiers behind him who can take the next hit. So such units are equipped with armor that keeps them from taking lethal or crippling injury and keeps them fit enough to fall back.
So who does plate mail make sense for?
Heavy cavalry and heavy infantry. These units are expected to smash thru enemy formations where falling back would leave you alone surrounded by enemies. Or to take a charge without needing to fall back. And it is much easier for the unit not to fall back when individual soldiers do not need to.
Officers in other units usually can use extra protection as having them injured makes other soldiers less effective. You can also have specific elite soldiers with better armor in a melee unit. Typically they would also act as NCOs. This is because they have better abilities or even weapons as other soldiers so having them injured actually makes the unit weaker.
Adventurers in modern RPGs or fantasy are an important group as well. They need all the protection they can carry. Since they are most familiar group of people to use medieval armor to modern people, this kind of skews how most people see armor.
answered 4 hours ago
Ville NiemiVille Niemi
34k260118
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add a comment |
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One answer is that the lesser armour type is lighter, and allows for more rapid troop movements and deployments. If said soldiers have to cross rivers or hike up mountains, lighter armour may be a necessity. Another answer is that full steel plate armor will become a lot hotter in warmer climates. This could be problematic an a desert environment. Another answer is that steel can rust. This might be an issue in a humid environment like a rain forrest.
answered 5 hours ago
SciFiGuySciFiGuy
8208
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your limitation of unlimited resources takes out the most obvious answers. Is work going into the production of the armor not a factor either? Otherweise this would be the most simple reason. Platearmor simply requires a lot of work hourd from skilled craftsmen.
Without special circumstances there is no reason to settle for inferior protection, neither on a individual nor on a military level. If you can equip youself in a superior way without any disadvantages, why wouldn't you? (caveat here for militaries, sometimes the good old mass assault with arrow catching cannon fodder will still be superior, yet your resource catch negates this unless manpower is also an unlimited resource or mass necromancy is a thing in your world)
Plate armor will also not limit agility or endurance significantly, as some people will certainly attempt to tell you. Even plate armor still allows you to do acrobatic tricks or to scale a climbing wall. (there are some cool videos of this in Youtube made by the Kingdom Come game developers) The endurence side of things can and should be fixed with training and drill. There might be people who are simply to weak to cope with plate armor, but they would fare poorly in combat against a plate user anyway, so there's no need to debate dead meat.
That all said, here are some circumstances where other armor might be chosen.
-Plate armor is ineffective
This is what happened irl. Guns simply got to powerfull and the performence of plate armor wasn't worth the money.
-Naval warfare
Steel plate doesn't like seawater and swimmimg in it gets awkward real quick. Naval landings turn out horrible if your equippment drowns you. (This refers to permanent sea troops (aka sailors). You might still use platy boys (this is a real word xD) for specific operations.
-Magic
Strongly depends on the magic system. Yet if there is something some form of metal-bending (no pun intended) like in Avatar: The last air bender plate armor becomes impractical and dangerous. On a similar note many role play systems have metal interfere with spell casting, so there is a good reason why mages would wear cloth armor.
-Covert Operations
If you want to take a city with the help of infiltration forces enemy guards will consider a bunch of people coming into the city in gambesons, which can be seen as normal winter cloaks, a lot less conspicuous than a bunch of platy boys. And if the mission will involve fighting, taking the most protection you can get away with is reasonable for individuals as well as for soldiers.
-Local Customs
This applies more to individuals. If plate armor is readyly available local rulers might decide to make private ownership illegal to have a military advantage over the people. So any adventurer will be forced to use the next best tier of armor, mail over gambeson.
-Prestige and Sports
In the Renaissance Rapier fencing was popular, as it was a test of style and skill. Platy boys bashing their heads in with hellbards and half-sword techniques might be seen as clumsy and brutish. Going to battle (or rather duels) with no armor sends a statement and makes winning more prestigious. Maybe there is a tradition that dictates armorless fighting under certain circumstances.
-Logistics
You infinite resource caveat limits this, but this is a serious limitation. Plate armor is maintenence heavy and heavy in it self. A Gambeson only needs sewing kit, but plate needs a forge and a skilled blacksmith to fix. Likewise plate might not be ideal for jungle warfare and especially an army needs significant infrastructure to supply plate to everyone.
-Tradition and Culture
A weak one as any culture that is technologically inferior will be conquered quickly, but "we've always done it this way" can be a strong argument.
-Plot Armor
I said noone would go for suboptimal armor. But in a medival setting platevarmir isn't the strongest armor, plot armor is. Why would you hero or any main character borther with any type of armor if they can't get hurt anyway.
TLDR: Under your limitations there is no general good reason to settle for inferior armor. There are a number of exceptions, the only general none quirky one beeing anti-armor magic.
answered 3 hours ago
TheDyingOfLightTheDyingOfLight
915
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5 Answers
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$begingroup$
Comfort, individually
Plate mail is heavy and hot, which is why you don't want to wear it all the time. Instead, you'd strip down your armor while you weren't seriously expecting combat, leaving only the gambeson (cloth padding) or gambeson and chain mail. Much more comfortable, but now you're vulnerable.
Logistics, on an organization level
Let's say you've got an army. One of the important bits about your typical medieval army is how far they can march in a day for a given level of exhaustion. So your army isn't going to be wearing plate mail 24/7. If they're not carrying their armor on their persons, it has to be brought on carts. This means more carts, more draft animals to pull the carts, and more resources for those. It adds up. You also need more blacksmiths to help maintain the armor.
Training
First off, many medieval armies were levies/drafts, were they basically grab one out of every N men in an area. These are not professional soldiers and they would not know how to fight in plate mail, both because of weight and because of the vision impairment. It would take longer to train them in fighting in plate mail.
Don and doff
Plate mail is not easy to get into and out of. It usually required someone to help, and if your entire army is wearing plate mail, along with the gloves (that need to be secured) then you'll have problems.
This is also important because you can't always predict when combat will happen long enough in advance to get into armor. If you're sleeping, outside your armor (see comfort) then it will take you a bit to get into armor. In which time someone will probably stab and/or shoot you.
Trust
In modern times, we have these things called security clearances, because we don't trust everyone. You can't fly a fighter jet without passing a background check, nor will you be hired as an information security officer.
The same principle applies here: as a government, I don't want to give every Tom, Dick, and Harry armor that makes them very hard to put down. I don't trust them. That's reserved for my most loyal troops and bodyguards. With an equipment advantage, my palace guards and bodyguards can compensate for numerical or informational (i.e. ambush) disadvantages.
answered 5 hours ago
ltmauveltmauve
2,395616
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I like your idea on trust, it is not something i considered. Perhaps you’d need a license of some sort to own full steel plate, similar to how you need a license to own a gun in our modern world.
$endgroup$
– Liam Morris
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Comfort, individually
Plate mail is heavy and hot, which is why you don't want to wear it all the time. Instead, you'd strip down your armor while you weren't seriously expecting combat, leaving only the gambeson (cloth padding) or gambeson and chain mail. Much more comfortable, but now you're vulnerable.
Logistics, on an organization level
Let's say you've got an army. One of the important bits about your typical medieval army is how far they can march in a day for a given level of exhaustion. So your army isn't going to be wearing plate mail 24/7. If they're not carrying their armor on their persons, it has to be brought on carts. This means more carts, more draft animals to pull the carts, and more resources for those. It adds up. You also need more blacksmiths to help maintain the armor.
Training
First off, many medieval armies were levies/drafts, were they basically grab one out of every N men in an area. These are not professional soldiers and they would not know how to fight in plate mail, both because of weight and because of the vision impairment. It would take longer to train them in fighting in plate mail.
Don and doff
Plate mail is not easy to get into and out of. It usually required someone to help, and if your entire army is wearing plate mail, along with the gloves (that need to be secured) then you'll have problems.
This is also important because you can't always predict when combat will happen long enough in advance to get into armor. If you're sleeping, outside your armor (see comfort) then it will take you a bit to get into armor. In which time someone will probably stab and/or shoot you.
Trust
In modern times, we have these things called security clearances, because we don't trust everyone. You can't fly a fighter jet without passing a background check, nor will you be hired as an information security officer.
The same principle applies here: as a government, I don't want to give every Tom, Dick, and Harry armor that makes them very hard to put down. I don't trust them. That's reserved for my most loyal troops and bodyguards. With an equipment advantage, my palace guards and bodyguards can compensate for numerical or informational (i.e. ambush) disadvantages.
answered 5 hours ago
ltmauveltmauve
2,395616
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I like your idea on trust, it is not something i considered. Perhaps you’d need a license of some sort to own full steel plate, similar to how you need a license to own a gun in our modern world.
$endgroup$
– Liam Morris
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Comfort, individually
Plate mail is heavy and hot, which is why you don't want to wear it all the time. Instead, you'd strip down your armor while you weren't seriously expecting combat, leaving only the gambeson (cloth padding) or gambeson and chain mail. Much more comfortable, but now you're vulnerable.
Logistics, on an organization level
Let's say you've got an army. One of the important bits about your typical medieval army is how far they can march in a day for a given level of exhaustion. So your army isn't going to be wearing plate mail 24/7. If they're not carrying their armor on their persons, it has to be brought on carts. This means more carts, more draft animals to pull the carts, and more resources for those. It adds up. You also need more blacksmiths to help maintain the armor.
Training
First off, many medieval armies were levies/drafts, were they basically grab one out of every N men in an area. These are not professional soldiers and they would not know how to fight in plate mail, both because of weight and because of the vision impairment. It would take longer to train them in fighting in plate mail.
Don and doff
Plate mail is not easy to get into and out of. It usually required someone to help, and if your entire army is wearing plate mail, along with the gloves (that need to be secured) then you'll have problems.
This is also important because you can't always predict when combat will happen long enough in advance to get into armor. If you're sleeping, outside your armor (see comfort) then it will take you a bit to get into armor. In which time someone will probably stab and/or shoot you.
Trust
In modern times, we have these things called security clearances, because we don't trust everyone. You can't fly a fighter jet without passing a background check, nor will you be hired as an information security officer.
The same principle applies here: as a government, I don't want to give every Tom, Dick, and Harry armor that makes them very hard to put down. I don't trust them. That's reserved for my most loyal troops and bodyguards. With an equipment advantage, my palace guards and bodyguards can compensate for numerical or informational (i.e. ambush) disadvantages.
answered 5 hours ago
ltmauveltmauve
2,395616
$endgroup$
Comfort, individually
Plate mail is heavy and hot, which is why you don't want to wear it all the time. Instead, you'd strip down your armor while you weren't seriously expecting combat, leaving only the gambeson (cloth padding) or gambeson and chain mail. Much more comfortable, but now you're vulnerable.
Logistics, on an organization level
Let's say you've got an army. One of the important bits about your typical medieval army is how far they can march in a day for a given level of exhaustion. So your army isn't going to be wearing plate mail 24/7. If they're not carrying their armor on their persons, it has to be brought on carts. This means more carts, more draft animals to pull the carts, and more resources for those. It adds up. You also need more blacksmiths to help maintain the armor.
Training
First off, many medieval armies were levies/drafts, were they basically grab one out of every N men in an area. These are not professional soldiers and they would not know how to fight in plate mail, both because of weight and because of the vision impairment. It would take longer to train them in fighting in plate mail.
Don and doff
Plate mail is not easy to get into and out of. It usually required someone to help, and if your entire army is wearing plate mail, along with the gloves (that need to be secured) then you'll have problems.
This is also important because you can't always predict when combat will happen long enough in advance to get into armor. If you're sleeping, outside your armor (see comfort) then it will take you a bit to get into armor. In which time someone will probably stab and/or shoot you.
Trust
In modern times, we have these things called security clearances, because we don't trust everyone. You can't fly a fighter jet without passing a background check, nor will you be hired as an information security officer.
The same principle applies here: as a government, I don't want to give every Tom, Dick, and Harry armor that makes them very hard to put down. I don't trust them. That's reserved for my most loyal troops and bodyguards. With an equipment advantage, my palace guards and bodyguards can compensate for numerical or informational (i.e. ambush) disadvantages.
answered 5 hours ago
ltmauveltmauve
2,395616
answered 5 hours ago
ltmauveltmauve
2,395616
answered 5 hours ago
ltmauveltmauve
2,395616
answered 5 hours ago
ltmauveltmauve
2,395616
2,395616
$begingroup$
I like your idea on trust, it is not something i considered. Perhaps you’d need a license of some sort to own full steel plate, similar to how you need a license to own a gun in our modern world.
$endgroup$
– Liam Morris
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I like your idea on trust, it is not something i considered. Perhaps you’d need a license of some sort to own full steel plate, similar to how you need a license to own a gun in our modern world.
$endgroup$
– Liam Morris
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
I like your idea on trust, it is not something i considered. Perhaps you’d need a license of some sort to own full steel plate, similar to how you need a license to own a gun in our modern world.
$endgroup$
– Liam Morris
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
I like your idea on trust, it is not something i considered. Perhaps you’d need a license of some sort to own full steel plate, similar to how you need a license to own a gun in our modern world.
$endgroup$
– Liam Morris
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Say we have a knight in full steel armor, fighting a guy in practically nothing. Certainly, the armor should be useful. However, fire and blunt weapons will both be worse for the knight, because dodging is presumably far harder. A skilled fighter also may opt for lighter armor to outmaneuver the knight, such as using a sword (armor blocks slash attacks), and stabbing joints with the faster and more accurate movement the light/no armor can allow.
Perhaps armor stands out. A knight in full metal must be a clear target to raiders than what appears to be a poor "unarmed" beggar/peasant.
Armor also is very annoying in terms of heat (protective fencing gear is bad enough with sweat, I'd hate to imagine 60 pounds of armor).
Traveling also would probably be bad in armor. I highly doubt armor is comfortable for normal situations, nor would I believe knights would always wear armor at all times (sounds like paranoia to me).
Another thing I'd like to note: Spartans would go into battle mostly naked with a shield, breastplate, and helmet. I don't have any idea of the accuracy to this statement, but this getup will already weigh more than 50 pounds in metal, explaining why minimal armor would be favorable.
As a final side note, there is something called the "murder stroke", slamming the hilt of a sword into a helmeted person's skull. Regardless of armor, the impact should still kill. If I face a swordsman of considerable skill, I personally would take the no-armor route and sprint full speed away from them, if I could.
answered 4 hours ago
FiremorfoxFiremorfox
434
New contributor
Firemorfox is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
"However, fire and blunt weapons will both be worse for the knight, because dodging is presumably far harder. A skilled fighter also may opt for lighter armor to outmaneuver the knight, such as using a sword (armor blocks slash attacks), and stabbing joints with the faster and more accurate movement the light/no armor can allow." Have you ever actually fought in armor? While I don't have experience in plate, even plate users stay very mobile and can still do acrobatic tricks. When I fight people dressed in sports cloth wearing mail or gambeson there is no harder dodging or faster attacking.
$endgroup$
– TheDyingOfLight
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Say we have a knight in full steel armor, fighting a guy in practically nothing. Certainly, the armor should be useful. However, fire and blunt weapons will both be worse for the knight, because dodging is presumably far harder. A skilled fighter also may opt for lighter armor to outmaneuver the knight, such as using a sword (armor blocks slash attacks), and stabbing joints with the faster and more accurate movement the light/no armor can allow.
Perhaps armor stands out. A knight in full metal must be a clear target to raiders than what appears to be a poor "unarmed" beggar/peasant.
Armor also is very annoying in terms of heat (protective fencing gear is bad enough with sweat, I'd hate to imagine 60 pounds of armor).
Traveling also would probably be bad in armor. I highly doubt armor is comfortable for normal situations, nor would I believe knights would always wear armor at all times (sounds like paranoia to me).
Another thing I'd like to note: Spartans would go into battle mostly naked with a shield, breastplate, and helmet. I don't have any idea of the accuracy to this statement, but this getup will already weigh more than 50 pounds in metal, explaining why minimal armor would be favorable.
As a final side note, there is something called the "murder stroke", slamming the hilt of a sword into a helmeted person's skull. Regardless of armor, the impact should still kill. If I face a swordsman of considerable skill, I personally would take the no-armor route and sprint full speed away from them, if I could.
answered 4 hours ago
FiremorfoxFiremorfox
434
New contributor
Firemorfox is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
"However, fire and blunt weapons will both be worse for the knight, because dodging is presumably far harder. A skilled fighter also may opt for lighter armor to outmaneuver the knight, such as using a sword (armor blocks slash attacks), and stabbing joints with the faster and more accurate movement the light/no armor can allow." Have you ever actually fought in armor? While I don't have experience in plate, even plate users stay very mobile and can still do acrobatic tricks. When I fight people dressed in sports cloth wearing mail or gambeson there is no harder dodging or faster attacking.
$endgroup$
– TheDyingOfLight
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Say we have a knight in full steel armor, fighting a guy in practically nothing. Certainly, the armor should be useful. However, fire and blunt weapons will both be worse for the knight, because dodging is presumably far harder. A skilled fighter also may opt for lighter armor to outmaneuver the knight, such as using a sword (armor blocks slash attacks), and stabbing joints with the faster and more accurate movement the light/no armor can allow.
Perhaps armor stands out. A knight in full metal must be a clear target to raiders than what appears to be a poor "unarmed" beggar/peasant.
Armor also is very annoying in terms of heat (protective fencing gear is bad enough with sweat, I'd hate to imagine 60 pounds of armor).
Traveling also would probably be bad in armor. I highly doubt armor is comfortable for normal situations, nor would I believe knights would always wear armor at all times (sounds like paranoia to me).
Another thing I'd like to note: Spartans would go into battle mostly naked with a shield, breastplate, and helmet. I don't have any idea of the accuracy to this statement, but this getup will already weigh more than 50 pounds in metal, explaining why minimal armor would be favorable.
As a final side note, there is something called the "murder stroke", slamming the hilt of a sword into a helmeted person's skull. Regardless of armor, the impact should still kill. If I face a swordsman of considerable skill, I personally would take the no-armor route and sprint full speed away from them, if I could.
answered 4 hours ago
FiremorfoxFiremorfox
434
New contributor
Firemorfox is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
Say we have a knight in full steel armor, fighting a guy in practically nothing. Certainly, the armor should be useful. However, fire and blunt weapons will both be worse for the knight, because dodging is presumably far harder. A skilled fighter also may opt for lighter armor to outmaneuver the knight, such as using a sword (armor blocks slash attacks), and stabbing joints with the faster and more accurate movement the light/no armor can allow.
Perhaps armor stands out. A knight in full metal must be a clear target to raiders than what appears to be a poor "unarmed" beggar/peasant.
Armor also is very annoying in terms of heat (protective fencing gear is bad enough with sweat, I'd hate to imagine 60 pounds of armor).
Traveling also would probably be bad in armor. I highly doubt armor is comfortable for normal situations, nor would I believe knights would always wear armor at all times (sounds like paranoia to me).
Another thing I'd like to note: Spartans would go into battle mostly naked with a shield, breastplate, and helmet. I don't have any idea of the accuracy to this statement, but this getup will already weigh more than 50 pounds in metal, explaining why minimal armor would be favorable.
As a final side note, there is something called the "murder stroke", slamming the hilt of a sword into a helmeted person's skull. Regardless of armor, the impact should still kill. If I face a swordsman of considerable skill, I personally would take the no-armor route and sprint full speed away from them, if I could.
answered 4 hours ago
FiremorfoxFiremorfox
434
New contributor
Firemorfox is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 4 hours ago
FiremorfoxFiremorfox
434
New contributor
Firemorfox is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 4 hours ago
FiremorfoxFiremorfox
434
answered 4 hours ago
FiremorfoxFiremorfox
434
434
New contributor
Firemorfox is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Firemorfox is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Firemorfox is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$begingroup$
"However, fire and blunt weapons will both be worse for the knight, because dodging is presumably far harder. A skilled fighter also may opt for lighter armor to outmaneuver the knight, such as using a sword (armor blocks slash attacks), and stabbing joints with the faster and more accurate movement the light/no armor can allow." Have you ever actually fought in armor? While I don't have experience in plate, even plate users stay very mobile and can still do acrobatic tricks. When I fight people dressed in sports cloth wearing mail or gambeson there is no harder dodging or faster attacking.
$endgroup$
– TheDyingOfLight
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
"However, fire and blunt weapons will both be worse for the knight, because dodging is presumably far harder. A skilled fighter also may opt for lighter armor to outmaneuver the knight, such as using a sword (armor blocks slash attacks), and stabbing joints with the faster and more accurate movement the light/no armor can allow." Have you ever actually fought in armor? While I don't have experience in plate, even plate users stay very mobile and can still do acrobatic tricks. When I fight people dressed in sports cloth wearing mail or gambeson there is no harder dodging or faster attacking.
$endgroup$
– TheDyingOfLight
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
"However, fire and blunt weapons will both be worse for the knight, because dodging is presumably far harder. A skilled fighter also may opt for lighter armor to outmaneuver the knight, such as using a sword (armor blocks slash attacks), and stabbing joints with the faster and more accurate movement the light/no armor can allow." Have you ever actually fought in armor? While I don't have experience in plate, even plate users stay very mobile and can still do acrobatic tricks. When I fight people dressed in sports cloth wearing mail or gambeson there is no harder dodging or faster attacking.
$endgroup$
– TheDyingOfLight
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
"However, fire and blunt weapons will both be worse for the knight, because dodging is presumably far harder. A skilled fighter also may opt for lighter armor to outmaneuver the knight, such as using a sword (armor blocks slash attacks), and stabbing joints with the faster and more accurate movement the light/no armor can allow." Have you ever actually fought in armor? While I don't have experience in plate, even plate users stay very mobile and can still do acrobatic tricks. When I fight people dressed in sports cloth wearing mail or gambeson there is no harder dodging or faster attacking.
$endgroup$
– TheDyingOfLight
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Armor was chosen based on how good it was for its actual purpose. This is the same way modern armies use to choose their equipment.
As an example the rifles used in the world wars had more powerful cartridges and were expected to be accurate to greater distances than modern assault rifles. And you could get them in automatic versions even. But starting in the 30s (I think) more and more armies realized that most soldiers never or extremely rarely shoot beyond 150 to 200 meters. Or need the extra penetration that a full powered rifle cartridge gives.
This means that the rifles are not really better than an assault rifle in actual use. Equipping your common soldiers with those will give you no benefit over using cheaper and lighter assault rifles shooting weaker and cheaper ammunition.
Same logic applies with arming medieval armies with armor. A plate mail is heavy and expensive armor designed for repeatedly getting hit by heavy weapons without taking lethal damage. And it works very well.
But most medieval soldiers do not actually spend that much time getting repeatedly hit by heavy weapons just like most modern soldiers do not spend much time taking long range shots.
Ranged and light units are supposed to avoid taking heavy hits altogether. Equipping them with heavy armor would just make them slower and encourage them to do things they really should not be doing.
Even normal front line melee units where soldiers do get hit with heavy weapons do not really need soldiers to take repeated heavy hits. There are other soldiers behind him who can take the next hit. So such units are equipped with armor that keeps them from taking lethal or crippling injury and keeps them fit enough to fall back.
So who does plate mail make sense for?
Heavy cavalry and heavy infantry. These units are expected to smash thru enemy formations where falling back would leave you alone surrounded by enemies. Or to take a charge without needing to fall back. And it is much easier for the unit not to fall back when individual soldiers do not need to.
Officers in other units usually can use extra protection as having them injured makes other soldiers less effective. You can also have specific elite soldiers with better armor in a melee unit. Typically they would also act as NCOs. This is because they have better abilities or even weapons as other soldiers so having them injured actually makes the unit weaker.
Adventurers in modern RPGs or fantasy are an important group as well. They need all the protection they can carry. Since they are most familiar group of people to use medieval armor to modern people, this kind of skews how most people see armor.
answered 4 hours ago
Ville NiemiVille Niemi
34k260118
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Armor was chosen based on how good it was for its actual purpose. This is the same way modern armies use to choose their equipment.
As an example the rifles used in the world wars had more powerful cartridges and were expected to be accurate to greater distances than modern assault rifles. And you could get them in automatic versions even. But starting in the 30s (I think) more and more armies realized that most soldiers never or extremely rarely shoot beyond 150 to 200 meters. Or need the extra penetration that a full powered rifle cartridge gives.
This means that the rifles are not really better than an assault rifle in actual use. Equipping your common soldiers with those will give you no benefit over using cheaper and lighter assault rifles shooting weaker and cheaper ammunition.
Same logic applies with arming medieval armies with armor. A plate mail is heavy and expensive armor designed for repeatedly getting hit by heavy weapons without taking lethal damage. And it works very well.
But most medieval soldiers do not actually spend that much time getting repeatedly hit by heavy weapons just like most modern soldiers do not spend much time taking long range shots.
Ranged and light units are supposed to avoid taking heavy hits altogether. Equipping them with heavy armor would just make them slower and encourage them to do things they really should not be doing.
Even normal front line melee units where soldiers do get hit with heavy weapons do not really need soldiers to take repeated heavy hits. There are other soldiers behind him who can take the next hit. So such units are equipped with armor that keeps them from taking lethal or crippling injury and keeps them fit enough to fall back.
So who does plate mail make sense for?
Heavy cavalry and heavy infantry. These units are expected to smash thru enemy formations where falling back would leave you alone surrounded by enemies. Or to take a charge without needing to fall back. And it is much easier for the unit not to fall back when individual soldiers do not need to.
Officers in other units usually can use extra protection as having them injured makes other soldiers less effective. You can also have specific elite soldiers with better armor in a melee unit. Typically they would also act as NCOs. This is because they have better abilities or even weapons as other soldiers so having them injured actually makes the unit weaker.
Adventurers in modern RPGs or fantasy are an important group as well. They need all the protection they can carry. Since they are most familiar group of people to use medieval armor to modern people, this kind of skews how most people see armor.
answered 4 hours ago
Ville NiemiVille Niemi
34k260118
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Armor was chosen based on how good it was for its actual purpose. This is the same way modern armies use to choose their equipment.
As an example the rifles used in the world wars had more powerful cartridges and were expected to be accurate to greater distances than modern assault rifles. And you could get them in automatic versions even. But starting in the 30s (I think) more and more armies realized that most soldiers never or extremely rarely shoot beyond 150 to 200 meters. Or need the extra penetration that a full powered rifle cartridge gives.
This means that the rifles are not really better than an assault rifle in actual use. Equipping your common soldiers with those will give you no benefit over using cheaper and lighter assault rifles shooting weaker and cheaper ammunition.
Same logic applies with arming medieval armies with armor. A plate mail is heavy and expensive armor designed for repeatedly getting hit by heavy weapons without taking lethal damage. And it works very well.
But most medieval soldiers do not actually spend that much time getting repeatedly hit by heavy weapons just like most modern soldiers do not spend much time taking long range shots.
Ranged and light units are supposed to avoid taking heavy hits altogether. Equipping them with heavy armor would just make them slower and encourage them to do things they really should not be doing.
Even normal front line melee units where soldiers do get hit with heavy weapons do not really need soldiers to take repeated heavy hits. There are other soldiers behind him who can take the next hit. So such units are equipped with armor that keeps them from taking lethal or crippling injury and keeps them fit enough to fall back.
So who does plate mail make sense for?
Heavy cavalry and heavy infantry. These units are expected to smash thru enemy formations where falling back would leave you alone surrounded by enemies. Or to take a charge without needing to fall back. And it is much easier for the unit not to fall back when individual soldiers do not need to.
Officers in other units usually can use extra protection as having them injured makes other soldiers less effective. You can also have specific elite soldiers with better armor in a melee unit. Typically they would also act as NCOs. This is because they have better abilities or even weapons as other soldiers so having them injured actually makes the unit weaker.
Adventurers in modern RPGs or fantasy are an important group as well. They need all the protection they can carry. Since they are most familiar group of people to use medieval armor to modern people, this kind of skews how most people see armor.
answered 4 hours ago
Ville NiemiVille Niemi
34k260118
$endgroup$
Armor was chosen based on how good it was for its actual purpose. This is the same way modern armies use to choose their equipment.
As an example the rifles used in the world wars had more powerful cartridges and were expected to be accurate to greater distances than modern assault rifles. And you could get them in automatic versions even. But starting in the 30s (I think) more and more armies realized that most soldiers never or extremely rarely shoot beyond 150 to 200 meters. Or need the extra penetration that a full powered rifle cartridge gives.
This means that the rifles are not really better than an assault rifle in actual use. Equipping your common soldiers with those will give you no benefit over using cheaper and lighter assault rifles shooting weaker and cheaper ammunition.
Same logic applies with arming medieval armies with armor. A plate mail is heavy and expensive armor designed for repeatedly getting hit by heavy weapons without taking lethal damage. And it works very well.
But most medieval soldiers do not actually spend that much time getting repeatedly hit by heavy weapons just like most modern soldiers do not spend much time taking long range shots.
Ranged and light units are supposed to avoid taking heavy hits altogether. Equipping them with heavy armor would just make them slower and encourage them to do things they really should not be doing.
Even normal front line melee units where soldiers do get hit with heavy weapons do not really need soldiers to take repeated heavy hits. There are other soldiers behind him who can take the next hit. So such units are equipped with armor that keeps them from taking lethal or crippling injury and keeps them fit enough to fall back.
So who does plate mail make sense for?
Heavy cavalry and heavy infantry. These units are expected to smash thru enemy formations where falling back would leave you alone surrounded by enemies. Or to take a charge without needing to fall back. And it is much easier for the unit not to fall back when individual soldiers do not need to.
Officers in other units usually can use extra protection as having them injured makes other soldiers less effective. You can also have specific elite soldiers with better armor in a melee unit. Typically they would also act as NCOs. This is because they have better abilities or even weapons as other soldiers so having them injured actually makes the unit weaker.
Adventurers in modern RPGs or fantasy are an important group as well. They need all the protection they can carry. Since they are most familiar group of people to use medieval armor to modern people, this kind of skews how most people see armor.
answered 4 hours ago
Ville NiemiVille Niemi
34k260118
edited 4 hours ago
answered 4 hours ago
Ville NiemiVille Niemi
34k260118
answered 4 hours ago
Ville NiemiVille Niemi
34k260118
answered 4 hours ago
Ville NiemiVille Niemi
34k260118
34k260118
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
One answer is that the lesser armour type is lighter, and allows for more rapid troop movements and deployments. If said soldiers have to cross rivers or hike up mountains, lighter armour may be a necessity. Another answer is that full steel plate armor will become a lot hotter in warmer climates. This could be problematic an a desert environment. Another answer is that steel can rust. This might be an issue in a humid environment like a rain forrest.
answered 5 hours ago
SciFiGuySciFiGuy
8208
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
One answer is that the lesser armour type is lighter, and allows for more rapid troop movements and deployments. If said soldiers have to cross rivers or hike up mountains, lighter armour may be a necessity. Another answer is that full steel plate armor will become a lot hotter in warmer climates. This could be problematic an a desert environment. Another answer is that steel can rust. This might be an issue in a humid environment like a rain forrest.
answered 5 hours ago
SciFiGuySciFiGuy
8208
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
One answer is that the lesser armour type is lighter, and allows for more rapid troop movements and deployments. If said soldiers have to cross rivers or hike up mountains, lighter armour may be a necessity. Another answer is that full steel plate armor will become a lot hotter in warmer climates. This could be problematic an a desert environment. Another answer is that steel can rust. This might be an issue in a humid environment like a rain forrest.
answered 5 hours ago
SciFiGuySciFiGuy
8208
$endgroup$
One answer is that the lesser armour type is lighter, and allows for more rapid troop movements and deployments. If said soldiers have to cross rivers or hike up mountains, lighter armour may be a necessity. Another answer is that full steel plate armor will become a lot hotter in warmer climates. This could be problematic an a desert environment. Another answer is that steel can rust. This might be an issue in a humid environment like a rain forrest.
answered 5 hours ago
SciFiGuySciFiGuy
8208
answered 5 hours ago
SciFiGuySciFiGuy
8208
answered 5 hours ago
SciFiGuySciFiGuy
8208
answered 5 hours ago
SciFiGuySciFiGuy
8208
8208
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your limitation of unlimited resources takes out the most obvious answers. Is work going into the production of the armor not a factor either? Otherweise this would be the most simple reason. Platearmor simply requires a lot of work hourd from skilled craftsmen.
Without special circumstances there is no reason to settle for inferior protection, neither on a individual nor on a military level. If you can equip youself in a superior way without any disadvantages, why wouldn't you? (caveat here for militaries, sometimes the good old mass assault with arrow catching cannon fodder will still be superior, yet your resource catch negates this unless manpower is also an unlimited resource or mass necromancy is a thing in your world)
Plate armor will also not limit agility or endurance significantly, as some people will certainly attempt to tell you. Even plate armor still allows you to do acrobatic tricks or to scale a climbing wall. (there are some cool videos of this in Youtube made by the Kingdom Come game developers) The endurence side of things can and should be fixed with training and drill. There might be people who are simply to weak to cope with plate armor, but they would fare poorly in combat against a plate user anyway, so there's no need to debate dead meat.
That all said, here are some circumstances where other armor might be chosen.
-Plate armor is ineffective
This is what happened irl. Guns simply got to powerfull and the performence of plate armor wasn't worth the money.
-Naval warfare
Steel plate doesn't like seawater and swimmimg in it gets awkward real quick. Naval landings turn out horrible if your equippment drowns you. (This refers to permanent sea troops (aka sailors). You might still use platy boys (this is a real word xD) for specific operations.
-Magic
Strongly depends on the magic system. Yet if there is something some form of metal-bending (no pun intended) like in Avatar: The last air bender plate armor becomes impractical and dangerous. On a similar note many role play systems have metal interfere with spell casting, so there is a good reason why mages would wear cloth armor.
-Covert Operations
If you want to take a city with the help of infiltration forces enemy guards will consider a bunch of people coming into the city in gambesons, which can be seen as normal winter cloaks, a lot less conspicuous than a bunch of platy boys. And if the mission will involve fighting, taking the most protection you can get away with is reasonable for individuals as well as for soldiers.
-Local Customs
This applies more to individuals. If plate armor is readyly available local rulers might decide to make private ownership illegal to have a military advantage over the people. So any adventurer will be forced to use the next best tier of armor, mail over gambeson.
-Prestige and Sports
In the Renaissance Rapier fencing was popular, as it was a test of style and skill. Platy boys bashing their heads in with hellbards and half-sword techniques might be seen as clumsy and brutish. Going to battle (or rather duels) with no armor sends a statement and makes winning more prestigious. Maybe there is a tradition that dictates armorless fighting under certain circumstances.
-Logistics
You infinite resource caveat limits this, but this is a serious limitation. Plate armor is maintenence heavy and heavy in it self. A Gambeson only needs sewing kit, but plate needs a forge and a skilled blacksmith to fix. Likewise plate might not be ideal for jungle warfare and especially an army needs significant infrastructure to supply plate to everyone.
-Tradition and Culture
A weak one as any culture that is technologically inferior will be conquered quickly, but "we've always done it this way" can be a strong argument.
-Plot Armor
I said noone would go for suboptimal armor. But in a medival setting platevarmir isn't the strongest armor, plot armor is. Why would you hero or any main character borther with any type of armor if they can't get hurt anyway.
TLDR: Under your limitations there is no general good reason to settle for inferior armor. There are a number of exceptions, the only general none quirky one beeing anti-armor magic.
answered 3 hours ago
TheDyingOfLightTheDyingOfLight
915
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your limitation of unlimited resources takes out the most obvious answers. Is work going into the production of the armor not a factor either? Otherweise this would be the most simple reason. Platearmor simply requires a lot of work hourd from skilled craftsmen.
Without special circumstances there is no reason to settle for inferior protection, neither on a individual nor on a military level. If you can equip youself in a superior way without any disadvantages, why wouldn't you? (caveat here for militaries, sometimes the good old mass assault with arrow catching cannon fodder will still be superior, yet your resource catch negates this unless manpower is also an unlimited resource or mass necromancy is a thing in your world)
Plate armor will also not limit agility or endurance significantly, as some people will certainly attempt to tell you. Even plate armor still allows you to do acrobatic tricks or to scale a climbing wall. (there are some cool videos of this in Youtube made by the Kingdom Come game developers) The endurence side of things can and should be fixed with training and drill. There might be people who are simply to weak to cope with plate armor, but they would fare poorly in combat against a plate user anyway, so there's no need to debate dead meat.
That all said, here are some circumstances where other armor might be chosen.
-Plate armor is ineffective
This is what happened irl. Guns simply got to powerfull and the performence of plate armor wasn't worth the money.
-Naval warfare
Steel plate doesn't like seawater and swimmimg in it gets awkward real quick. Naval landings turn out horrible if your equippment drowns you. (This refers to permanent sea troops (aka sailors). You might still use platy boys (this is a real word xD) for specific operations.
-Magic
Strongly depends on the magic system. Yet if there is something some form of metal-bending (no pun intended) like in Avatar: The last air bender plate armor becomes impractical and dangerous. On a similar note many role play systems have metal interfere with spell casting, so there is a good reason why mages would wear cloth armor.
-Covert Operations
If you want to take a city with the help of infiltration forces enemy guards will consider a bunch of people coming into the city in gambesons, which can be seen as normal winter cloaks, a lot less conspicuous than a bunch of platy boys. And if the mission will involve fighting, taking the most protection you can get away with is reasonable for individuals as well as for soldiers.
-Local Customs
This applies more to individuals. If plate armor is readyly available local rulers might decide to make private ownership illegal to have a military advantage over the people. So any adventurer will be forced to use the next best tier of armor, mail over gambeson.
-Prestige and Sports
In the Renaissance Rapier fencing was popular, as it was a test of style and skill. Platy boys bashing their heads in with hellbards and half-sword techniques might be seen as clumsy and brutish. Going to battle (or rather duels) with no armor sends a statement and makes winning more prestigious. Maybe there is a tradition that dictates armorless fighting under certain circumstances.
-Logistics
You infinite resource caveat limits this, but this is a serious limitation. Plate armor is maintenence heavy and heavy in it self. A Gambeson only needs sewing kit, but plate needs a forge and a skilled blacksmith to fix. Likewise plate might not be ideal for jungle warfare and especially an army needs significant infrastructure to supply plate to everyone.
-Tradition and Culture
A weak one as any culture that is technologically inferior will be conquered quickly, but "we've always done it this way" can be a strong argument.
-Plot Armor
I said noone would go for suboptimal armor. But in a medival setting platevarmir isn't the strongest armor, plot armor is. Why would you hero or any main character borther with any type of armor if they can't get hurt anyway.
TLDR: Under your limitations there is no general good reason to settle for inferior armor. There are a number of exceptions, the only general none quirky one beeing anti-armor magic.
answered 3 hours ago
TheDyingOfLightTheDyingOfLight
915
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your limitation of unlimited resources takes out the most obvious answers. Is work going into the production of the armor not a factor either? Otherweise this would be the most simple reason. Platearmor simply requires a lot of work hourd from skilled craftsmen.
Without special circumstances there is no reason to settle for inferior protection, neither on a individual nor on a military level. If you can equip youself in a superior way without any disadvantages, why wouldn't you? (caveat here for militaries, sometimes the good old mass assault with arrow catching cannon fodder will still be superior, yet your resource catch negates this unless manpower is also an unlimited resource or mass necromancy is a thing in your world)
Plate armor will also not limit agility or endurance significantly, as some people will certainly attempt to tell you. Even plate armor still allows you to do acrobatic tricks or to scale a climbing wall. (there are some cool videos of this in Youtube made by the Kingdom Come game developers) The endurence side of things can and should be fixed with training and drill. There might be people who are simply to weak to cope with plate armor, but they would fare poorly in combat against a plate user anyway, so there's no need to debate dead meat.
That all said, here are some circumstances where other armor might be chosen.
-Plate armor is ineffective
This is what happened irl. Guns simply got to powerfull and the performence of plate armor wasn't worth the money.
-Naval warfare
Steel plate doesn't like seawater and swimmimg in it gets awkward real quick. Naval landings turn out horrible if your equippment drowns you. (This refers to permanent sea troops (aka sailors). You might still use platy boys (this is a real word xD) for specific operations.
-Magic
Strongly depends on the magic system. Yet if there is something some form of metal-bending (no pun intended) like in Avatar: The last air bender plate armor becomes impractical and dangerous. On a similar note many role play systems have metal interfere with spell casting, so there is a good reason why mages would wear cloth armor.
-Covert Operations
If you want to take a city with the help of infiltration forces enemy guards will consider a bunch of people coming into the city in gambesons, which can be seen as normal winter cloaks, a lot less conspicuous than a bunch of platy boys. And if the mission will involve fighting, taking the most protection you can get away with is reasonable for individuals as well as for soldiers.
-Local Customs
This applies more to individuals. If plate armor is readyly available local rulers might decide to make private ownership illegal to have a military advantage over the people. So any adventurer will be forced to use the next best tier of armor, mail over gambeson.
-Prestige and Sports
In the Renaissance Rapier fencing was popular, as it was a test of style and skill. Platy boys bashing their heads in with hellbards and half-sword techniques might be seen as clumsy and brutish. Going to battle (or rather duels) with no armor sends a statement and makes winning more prestigious. Maybe there is a tradition that dictates armorless fighting under certain circumstances.
-Logistics
You infinite resource caveat limits this, but this is a serious limitation. Plate armor is maintenence heavy and heavy in it self. A Gambeson only needs sewing kit, but plate needs a forge and a skilled blacksmith to fix. Likewise plate might not be ideal for jungle warfare and especially an army needs significant infrastructure to supply plate to everyone.
-Tradition and Culture
A weak one as any culture that is technologically inferior will be conquered quickly, but "we've always done it this way" can be a strong argument.
-Plot Armor
I said noone would go for suboptimal armor. But in a medival setting platevarmir isn't the strongest armor, plot armor is. Why would you hero or any main character borther with any type of armor if they can't get hurt anyway.
TLDR: Under your limitations there is no general good reason to settle for inferior armor. There are a number of exceptions, the only general none quirky one beeing anti-armor magic.
answered 3 hours ago
TheDyingOfLightTheDyingOfLight
915
$endgroup$
Your limitation of unlimited resources takes out the most obvious answers. Is work going into the production of the armor not a factor either? Otherweise this would be the most simple reason. Platearmor simply requires a lot of work hourd from skilled craftsmen.
Without special circumstances there is no reason to settle for inferior protection, neither on a individual nor on a military level. If you can equip youself in a superior way without any disadvantages, why wouldn't you? (caveat here for militaries, sometimes the good old mass assault with arrow catching cannon fodder will still be superior, yet your resource catch negates this unless manpower is also an unlimited resource or mass necromancy is a thing in your world)
Plate armor will also not limit agility or endurance significantly, as some people will certainly attempt to tell you. Even plate armor still allows you to do acrobatic tricks or to scale a climbing wall. (there are some cool videos of this in Youtube made by the Kingdom Come game developers) The endurence side of things can and should be fixed with training and drill. There might be people who are simply to weak to cope with plate armor, but they would fare poorly in combat against a plate user anyway, so there's no need to debate dead meat.
That all said, here are some circumstances where other armor might be chosen.
-Plate armor is ineffective
This is what happened irl. Guns simply got to powerfull and the performence of plate armor wasn't worth the money.
-Naval warfare
Steel plate doesn't like seawater and swimmimg in it gets awkward real quick. Naval landings turn out horrible if your equippment drowns you. (This refers to permanent sea troops (aka sailors). You might still use platy boys (this is a real word xD) for specific operations.
-Magic
Strongly depends on the magic system. Yet if there is something some form of metal-bending (no pun intended) like in Avatar: The last air bender plate armor becomes impractical and dangerous. On a similar note many role play systems have metal interfere with spell casting, so there is a good reason why mages would wear cloth armor.
-Covert Operations
If you want to take a city with the help of infiltration forces enemy guards will consider a bunch of people coming into the city in gambesons, which can be seen as normal winter cloaks, a lot less conspicuous than a bunch of platy boys. And if the mission will involve fighting, taking the most protection you can get away with is reasonable for individuals as well as for soldiers.
-Local Customs
This applies more to individuals. If plate armor is readyly available local rulers might decide to make private ownership illegal to have a military advantage over the people. So any adventurer will be forced to use the next best tier of armor, mail over gambeson.
-Prestige and Sports
In the Renaissance Rapier fencing was popular, as it was a test of style and skill. Platy boys bashing their heads in with hellbards and half-sword techniques might be seen as clumsy and brutish. Going to battle (or rather duels) with no armor sends a statement and makes winning more prestigious. Maybe there is a tradition that dictates armorless fighting under certain circumstances.
-Logistics
You infinite resource caveat limits this, but this is a serious limitation. Plate armor is maintenence heavy and heavy in it self. A Gambeson only needs sewing kit, but plate needs a forge and a skilled blacksmith to fix. Likewise plate might not be ideal for jungle warfare and especially an army needs significant infrastructure to supply plate to everyone.
-Tradition and Culture
A weak one as any culture that is technologically inferior will be conquered quickly, but "we've always done it this way" can be a strong argument.
-Plot Armor
I said noone would go for suboptimal armor. But in a medival setting platevarmir isn't the strongest armor, plot armor is. Why would you hero or any main character borther with any type of armor if they can't get hurt anyway.
TLDR: Under your limitations there is no general good reason to settle for inferior armor. There are a number of exceptions, the only general none quirky one beeing anti-armor magic.
answered 3 hours ago
TheDyingOfLightTheDyingOfLight
915
answered 3 hours ago
TheDyingOfLightTheDyingOfLight
915
answered 3 hours ago
TheDyingOfLightTheDyingOfLight
915
answered 3 hours ago
TheDyingOfLightTheDyingOfLight
915
915
add a comment |
add a comment |
Liam Morris is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Liam Morris is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Liam Morris is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Liam Morris is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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$begingroup$
cost often comes in forms other than the initial outlay of funds. You want to go 'adventuring' in your plate armor? You going to ask those brigands to not begin their ambush until you have your armor on? Or do you live in it? If you live it in you're going to need to replace parts of it every week, even without any combat. No asphalt roads bro. Feel like you're walking through a swamp on the best of days, leave Scotland and you're gonna boil to death. Did you remember to bring that mobile forge along with you, btw?
$endgroup$
– Giu Piete
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Effectiveness depends on context.
$endgroup$
– Renan
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Renan By effectiveness i mean how well it serves it’s intended function, that being protecting the wearer and allowing them mobility. Though what you say is true, full plate would not be as effective in a swamp for example as there would be reduced mobility.
$endgroup$
– Liam Morris
4 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
If I may suggest a meta-answer which will cover all answers: No rational individual would ever choose a less effective armor over a more effective armor. However, their definition of "effective" may be different than you, as the worldbuilder, first think.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
4 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@LiamMorris It sounds to me like the higher ranking Roman soldiers found part of the effectiveness of their head-dress was in its interpersonal effects, and they valued those effects more than the lost effects.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
3 hours ago