Ttykuu

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Why don’t women say שלא עשני גויה and שפחה, according to Ashkenazim?

3

I see in Nusach Edos HaMizrach, women say שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה, “Who did not make me a non-Jewess” and “Who did not make me a maidservant,” paralleling the men’s שלא עשני גוי and שלא עשני עבד, “Who did not make me a non-Jew” and “Who did not make me a slave.”

Why don’t Ashkenazi women say these forms of the Berachos? Doesn’t it make more sense for women to refer to female non-Jews and slaves, rather than use the masculine form?

tefilla minhag

share|improve this question

edited 2 hours ago

DonielF

asked 3 hours ago

DonielFDonielF

16.2k12584

• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Some Ashkenaz do and some Sefardim don't. Don't extrapolate from some Siddur you saw when there are lots of different Siddurim out there.
  
  – Double AA♦
  2 hours ago
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @DoubleAA Granted it was just one Edus HaMizrach Siddur, but I’ve never seen an Ashkenazi Siddur with this Nusach.
  
  – DonielF
  2 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Eastern testimonies? Do you mean Eastern Communities? עדות is the plural of עדה
  
  – Double AA♦
  2 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Is there a reason to think that if a Jewish woman hadn't been a Jewish woman it would be more likely for her to have been a non-Jewish woman than to be a non-Jewish man?
  
  – Alex
  24 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

3

I see in Nusach Edos HaMizrach, women say שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה, “Who did not make me a non-Jewess” and “Who did not make me a maidservant,” paralleling the men’s שלא עשני גוי and שלא עשני עבד, “Who did not make me a non-Jew” and “Who did not make me a slave.”

Why don’t Ashkenazi women say these forms of the Berachos? Doesn’t it make more sense for women to refer to female non-Jews and slaves, rather than use the masculine form?

tefilla minhag

share|improve this question

edited 2 hours ago

DonielF

asked 3 hours ago

DonielFDonielF

16.2k12584

• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Some Ashkenaz do and some Sefardim don't. Don't extrapolate from some Siddur you saw when there are lots of different Siddurim out there.
  
  – Double AA♦
  2 hours ago
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @DoubleAA Granted it was just one Edus HaMizrach Siddur, but I’ve never seen an Ashkenazi Siddur with this Nusach.
  
  – DonielF
  2 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Eastern testimonies? Do you mean Eastern Communities? עדות is the plural of עדה
  
  – Double AA♦
  2 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Is there a reason to think that if a Jewish woman hadn't been a Jewish woman it would be more likely for her to have been a non-Jewish woman than to be a non-Jewish man?
  
  – Alex
  24 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

I see in Nusach Edos HaMizrach, women say שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה, “Who did not make me a non-Jewess” and “Who did not make me a maidservant,” paralleling the men’s שלא עשני גוי and שלא עשני עבד, “Who did not make me a non-Jew” and “Who did not make me a slave.”

Why don’t Ashkenazi women say these forms of the Berachos? Doesn’t it make more sense for women to refer to female non-Jews and slaves, rather than use the masculine form?

tefilla minhag

share|improve this question

edited 2 hours ago

DonielF

asked 3 hours ago

DonielFDonielF

16.2k12584

share|improve this question

edited 2 hours ago

DonielF

asked 3 hours ago

DonielFDonielF

16.2k12584

share|improve this question

edited 2 hours ago

DonielF

asked 3 hours ago

DonielFDonielF

16.2k12584

asked 3 hours ago

DonielFDonielF

16.2k12584

asked 3 hours ago

DonielFDonielF

16.2k12584

1 Answer
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2

There are a number of Ashkenazi Siddurim which include these forms of the blessings for women:

• Siddur Derech Si'ach Sadeh, printed in Berlin in 1713, has both שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה for women (in addition to שעשני כרצונו).




• Siddur Avodas Yisrael, printed in Rödelheim in 1901, has שלא עשני נכריה and שלא עשני שפחה (in addition to שעשני כרצונו).




• R. Yaakov Emeden in his Siddur Beis Yaakov writes that women should say שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה (as well as שעשני כרצונו), however, since these versions of the blessings are not found in the Talmud, they should be said without Shem u'Malchus (Hashem’s names and the words melech ha’olam).

So the difference is not between Ashkenaz and Edos HaMizrach, it is merely a difference of opinion between various poskim from all communites whether it is preferable to use the original version, or change it to an explicitly feminine form.

---

(Based on information I found here)

share|improve this answer

answered 19 mins ago

PloniPloni

4,6801460

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  This just pushes the question. Why do some change and some not? Particularly since it seems universally agreed to include שעשני כרצונו, which wasn’t in the Gemara, though many say that without שם ומלכות.
  
  – DonielF
  16 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @DonielF 1. Your original question was about Ashkenaz, so I answered that. But as far as why some do and some not I addressed in the last paragraph - it's like any other machlokes haPoskim. 2. Regarding שעשני כרצונו, it's not universal, as further evidenced by the fact that there's a machlokes whether or not to say it with Shem u'Malchus.
  
  – Ploni
  12 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

2

There are a number of Ashkenazi Siddurim which include these forms of the blessings for women:

• Siddur Derech Si'ach Sadeh, printed in Berlin in 1713, has both שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה for women (in addition to שעשני כרצונו).




• Siddur Avodas Yisrael, printed in Rödelheim in 1901, has שלא עשני נכריה and שלא עשני שפחה (in addition to שעשני כרצונו).




• R. Yaakov Emeden in his Siddur Beis Yaakov writes that women should say שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה (as well as שעשני כרצונו), however, since these versions of the blessings are not found in the Talmud, they should be said without Shem u'Malchus (Hashem’s names and the words melech ha’olam).

So the difference is not between Ashkenaz and Edos HaMizrach, it is merely a difference of opinion between various poskim from all communites whether it is preferable to use the original version, or change it to an explicitly feminine form.

---

(Based on information I found here)

share|improve this answer

answered 19 mins ago

PloniPloni

4,6801460

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  This just pushes the question. Why do some change and some not? Particularly since it seems universally agreed to include שעשני כרצונו, which wasn’t in the Gemara, though many say that without שם ומלכות.
  
  – DonielF
  16 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @DonielF 1. Your original question was about Ashkenaz, so I answered that. But as far as why some do and some not I addressed in the last paragraph - it's like any other machlokes haPoskim. 2. Regarding שעשני כרצונו, it's not universal, as further evidenced by the fact that there's a machlokes whether or not to say it with Shem u'Malchus.
  
  – Ploni
  12 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

2

There are a number of Ashkenazi Siddurim which include these forms of the blessings for women:

• Siddur Derech Si'ach Sadeh, printed in Berlin in 1713, has both שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה for women (in addition to שעשני כרצונו).




• Siddur Avodas Yisrael, printed in Rödelheim in 1901, has שלא עשני נכריה and שלא עשני שפחה (in addition to שעשני כרצונו).




• R. Yaakov Emeden in his Siddur Beis Yaakov writes that women should say שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה (as well as שעשני כרצונו), however, since these versions of the blessings are not found in the Talmud, they should be said without Shem u'Malchus (Hashem’s names and the words melech ha’olam).

So the difference is not between Ashkenaz and Edos HaMizrach, it is merely a difference of opinion between various poskim from all communites whether it is preferable to use the original version, or change it to an explicitly feminine form.

---

(Based on information I found here)

share|improve this answer

answered 19 mins ago

PloniPloni

4,6801460

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  This just pushes the question. Why do some change and some not? Particularly since it seems universally agreed to include שעשני כרצונו, which wasn’t in the Gemara, though many say that without שם ומלכות.
  
  – DonielF
  16 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @DonielF 1. Your original question was about Ashkenaz, so I answered that. But as far as why some do and some not I addressed in the last paragraph - it's like any other machlokes haPoskim. 2. Regarding שעשני כרצונו, it's not universal, as further evidenced by the fact that there's a machlokes whether or not to say it with Shem u'Malchus.
  
  – Ploni
  12 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

There are a number of Ashkenazi Siddurim which include these forms of the blessings for women:

• Siddur Derech Si'ach Sadeh, printed in Berlin in 1713, has both שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה for women (in addition to שעשני כרצונו).




• Siddur Avodas Yisrael, printed in Rödelheim in 1901, has שלא עשני נכריה and שלא עשני שפחה (in addition to שעשני כרצונו).




• R. Yaakov Emeden in his Siddur Beis Yaakov writes that women should say שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה (as well as שעשני כרצונו), however, since these versions of the blessings are not found in the Talmud, they should be said without Shem u'Malchus (Hashem’s names and the words melech ha’olam).

So the difference is not between Ashkenaz and Edos HaMizrach, it is merely a difference of opinion between various poskim from all communites whether it is preferable to use the original version, or change it to an explicitly feminine form.

---

(Based on information I found here)

share|improve this answer

answered 19 mins ago

PloniPloni

4,6801460

share|improve this answer

answered 19 mins ago

PloniPloni

4,6801460

answered 19 mins ago

PloniPloni

4,6801460

answered 19 mins ago

PloniPloni

4,6801460